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| MoritzJT | Anyone here familiar with together.jolla.com structure? | 01:23 |
|---|---|---|
| MoritzJT | On how to convert a question from a now fulfilled feature request into a bugtracker report question... Would that be frowned upon? | 01:24 |
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| ar | hi. why can't i just close the sailfish "2" tutorial instead of taking it? | 10:12 |
| ar | it's the third device i'm forced to take it on. | 10:12 |
| TemeV | ar: tap all corners in clockwise order | 10:14 |
| ar | TemeV: nope | 10:14 |
| TemeV | in the first page of the tutorial | 10:14 |
| ggabriel | does that actually work or is it troll? :P | 10:15 |
| TemeV | it does | 10:15 |
| ggabriel | nice | 10:15 |
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| TemeV | I guess sailors would lose their minds if there wasn't a way to skip it | 10:15 |
| Bysmyyr | and I think it is good to force people to take it as we saw manyu youtubevideos where people cannot use the phone | 10:16 |
| ar | too bad i can't do it on the second "stage" of the tutorial | 10:16 |
| ggabriel | pkill sailfish-tutorial | 10:16 |
| TemeV | ar: reboot with power button :) | 10:16 |
| ar | rebooting took me back to the start of tutorial, but at least i could close it there | 10:19 |
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| Stskeeps | /g w00t | 10:28 |
| lainwir3d | o/ | 10:30 |
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| chem|st | does anyone have a wroking setup with owncloud7x? | 12:38 |
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| chem|st | selfsigned cert | 12:39 |
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| flux | soo, after restarting my Jolla I find myself not being at Finnish winter time.. | 12:45 |
| Yaniel | is automatic time updating on? | 12:45 |
| flux | yes | 12:45 |
| flux | and I think the thing is at morning it was fine | 12:45 |
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| the_mgt | winter is over now | 12:46 |
| flux | switched to manual | 12:47 |
| ggabriel | winter is coming | 12:47 |
| the_mgt | summer's almost gone | 12:47 |
| ggabriel | flux: fwiw, mine switched to gmt normally this weekend (i'm in 1.1.9) | 12:47 |
| ggabriel | erm, summer has been gone since 21 sept | 12:48 |
| stephg | ggabriel: ditto | 12:48 |
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| flux | ggabriel, but have you restarted your phone? | 12:49 |
| flux | the problem occurred after restarting | 12:49 |
| ggabriel | flux: let me try | 12:50 |
| ggabriel | i'll lose the position in my vitalic album, but i guess i can make that sacrifice for you :P | 12:50 |
| flux | :-o | 12:50 |
| * ggabriel has to read latest tohkbd faq as ctrl+alt+del doesn't work any more :( | 12:51 | |
| ggabriel | flux: works ok | 12:52 |
| ggabriel | mind you, could be a random hiccup, this happened at least once with my n9 and a switch to manual and then back to automatic fixed it | 12:53 |
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| flux | seems to work ok after setting to automatic here as well | 12:58 |
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| PaulePanter | Hi. So my Jolla phone touch screen sometimes arbitrarily stops working and I have to restart the phone. | 13:45 |
| PaulePanter | Is that a known problem or do I need to send the phone in? | 13:45 |
| PaulePanter | Is there a “replacement parts market” for the Jolla phone? | 13:46 |
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| PaulePanter | Also I bought it online from Germany. Do German laws apply regarding warrenty or the Finish ones? | 13:48 |
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| Nicd- | Finnish* | 13:50 |
| Nicd- | you have a 2 year warranty because that's what the EU mandates I think | 13:51 |
| Nicd- | someone correct if I'm wrong | 13:51 |
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| sdfr | chem|st: i have owncloud calendars working, though with oc 8.1/8.2 there seems to be a bug in their database, with workaround https://github.com/owncloud/calendar/issues/868 i have it working | 13:51 |
| PaulePanter | Nicd-: I thought so too. But reading the Jolla Web site it says something about one year. | 13:52 |
| PaulePanter | Nicd-: https://jolla.com/warranty-policy/ | 13:52 |
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| Stskeeps | PaulePanter: our own policies can't override EU ones, though | 13:53 |
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| PaulePanter | Stskeeps: Understood. | 13:55 |
| PaulePanter | So as it doesn’t look like that others have problems with the touch pad, I need to turn it in for repair. :/ | 13:55 |
| Stskeeps | what version? | 13:56 |
| PaulePanter | 1.1.9.28 | 13:58 |
| PaulePanter | Geräte Adaption: 1.0.0.30 | 13:58 |
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| Stskeeps | aok | 13:58 |
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| chem|st | sdfr: I had both working at some point with 7.x, now I get a connection but no calendars to sync and no addressbooks | 14:06 |
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| sdfr | which version of OC do you have? OC 8,1 and 8.2 have somewhat broken calendars (see the link), doesn't work well even in thunderbird+lightning | 14:09 |
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| sdfr | contacts I haven't tried, but might as well be that the problem is in changes made to OC 7->8 and not sailfish (i have 1.1.9.28 now) | 14:10 |
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| PaulePanter | Is there a price list somewhere, how much replacing the display of the Jolla phone would cost? | 14:13 |
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| teve | Finland 105€ | 14:17 |
| teve | http://mobylife.com/images/pricelists/Hinnastoliite_Jolla_alypuhelinten_naytonvaihdot.pdf | 14:17 |
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| PaulePanter | teve: I see. | 14:28 |
| ar | hi | 14:28 |
| PaulePanter | ar: Hi! | 14:28 |
| taaem | Does somebody knows why Ubuntu has already 2 partners for hardware in Europe and Jolla has only 1 in India, while Jolla has the better OS? | 14:29 |
| ar | is the settings app going to change from how it looks in 2.0 previews? | 14:29 |
| PaulePanter | taaem: It’s very subjective claim, what is better. | 14:29 |
| ar | because now it has lost 90% of its functionality now: i can't quickly disable/enable 3g/wifi/internet sharing | 14:29 |
| ar | and worst of all, the upgrade changed my ssid name | 14:29 |
| ggabriel | taaem: is that info official? do they have a phone already that I can go and buy? | 14:29 |
| Nicd- | taaem: Canonical is a lot better and has a lot more money than Jolla | 14:30 |
| PaulePanter | taaem: But as you are in #jollamobile most will agree I guess. | 14:30 |
| Nicd- | s/better/bigger/ | 14:30 |
| Nicd- | silly typo | 14:30 |
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| PaulePanter | ggabriel: Yes, you can buy Ubuntu phones. | 14:30 |
| taaem | ggabriel: BQ Aqauris E 4.5 / 5 and Meizu MX 4 | 14:30 |
| cos- | does anyone know if there is a roadmap for supporting more bluetooth profiles? for example MAP protocol for message access is missing. | 14:30 |
| ggabriel | so, who are the partners in EU? | 14:30 |
| PaulePanter | And regarding the Linux kernel side it’s much better from the Jolla state of the art. | 14:30 |
| Mikaela | there are multiple Ubuntu phones already | 14:30 |
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| PaulePanter | Having to mail Jolla to get the source still surprises me for a supposed to be open system. It’s a joke. | 14:31 |
| taaem | ggabriel: all devices are sold here | 14:31 |
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| Stskeeps | PaulePanter: http://releases.sailfishos.org/sources/ | 14:32 |
| Stskeeps | taaem: they are employing the model of taking essentially aftermarket devices, already certified, and flashing ubuntu phone on them | 14:32 |
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| Stskeeps | it's a much less difficult process than shipping a whole device with that out of the box | 14:32 |
| ggabriel | o i c | 14:32 |
| taaem | Stskeeps: yeah but than they sell these devices :P | 14:32 |
| Stskeeps | taaem: sure | 14:33 |
| PaulePanter | Stskeeps: Thanks. Since when is this online? | 14:33 |
| Stskeeps | PaulePanter: since a long time | 14:33 |
| PaulePanter | Sorry, for spreading old information then. | 14:33 |
| jonwil | It really annoys me when companies refuse to comply with the GPL or in some cases complying only begrudgingly complying and sticking the source somewhere that's hard to find or get (e.g. the aformentioned "we will send you a CD" BS) | 14:33 |
| ggabriel | so, bq is spanish, meizu doesn't appear to be european but chinese | 14:33 |
| jonwil | But yeah if Jollia doesn't fall into that camp that's a good thing | 14:33 |
| Stskeeps | moo jonwil | 14:33 |
| PaulePanter | Stskeeps: But no development history there I’d assume. | 14:33 |
| Stskeeps | PaulePanter: no, but for most parts you can look at _service and check out the git repos directly and git checkout the sha. | 14:34 |
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| taaem | ggabriel: its about that you can buy 3 quite new phones runnning Ubuntu and only one quite outdated device running sailfish | 14:34 |
| ggabriel | taaem: i think Stskeeps explained it... | 14:34 |
| Stskeeps | while with jolla devices we actually spend a lot of time fitting the device to sailfishos | 14:34 |
| Stskeeps | in industrial design and otherwise | 14:35 |
| ggabriel | you could go to your local mobile phone shop and ask them to flash sfos on a nexus 5 too | 14:35 |
| PaulePanter | So, is there an application showing me the `dmesg` output or `journalctl` when my touchpad stops working? | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | which one is the better direction.. that's a good question | 14:35 |
| ggabriel | it won't be the same though | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | PaulePanter: ssh in when it happens | 14:35 |
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| Stskeeps | since i presume you have developer mode | 14:35 |
| Stskeeps | i'm still amazed it took a toy car to kill my prototype jolla1 | 14:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:36 |
| PaulePanter | Stskeeps: Not yet. My goal was just to use it as a working phone and not more. | 14:36 |
| Stskeeps | after many many years of abuse | 14:36 |
| Stskeeps | PaulePanter: ok, anyway, no risk there | 14:36 |
| PaulePanter | Thanks. | 14:36 |
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| taaem | Stskeeps: fitting the device to the OS is in my opinion also, but if there are no devices :-/ let see what Intex is up to | 14:37 |
| Stskeeps | i'm personally not convinced of ubuntu phone's approach after seeing it in the flesh, but hey, let's not throw stones.. :P | 14:37 |
| the_mgt | fair phone2 deal would be nice, although I don't know what the added price for a sfos version would be | 14:38 |
| Stskeeps | well, basic sailfishos i would presume is just downloadable | 14:38 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: ...while sitting in a glas house yourself | 14:38 |
| taaem | the_mgt: its only a community port so you buy a regular fairphone and then flash it | 14:38 |
| taaem | and without alien dalvik | 14:38 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: hrm, glasshouse could be neat for a project name.. | 14:39 |
| ggabriel | ...or maps | 14:39 |
| chem|st | taaem: I hope so (without alien) | 14:39 |
| ggabriel | maps is easy to replace | 14:39 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: where do I sign up? | 14:39 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: TBA | 14:39 |
| ggabriel | but alien dalvik sadly is part of most people's expectation with sfos | 14:39 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: hopefully my next projects are simply open source from the start, no silly 'sign up'.. | 14:39 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:39 |
| the_mgt | I could live without dalvik, but then I would not buy a 500+€ phone | 14:40 |
| ggabriel | the_mgt: :) | 14:40 |
| taaem | ggabriel: its just because sometimes you have to rely on apps that aren't available for the Jolla like banking apps ... | 14:40 |
| the_mgt | I could buy a used one and toy around with it. I need dalvik for some things and maps would be nice, too | 14:41 |
| ggabriel | taaem: hence my "sadly" comment, people using a lot of custom, closed sourced things to do basic stuff such as sending an SMS | 14:41 |
| chem|st | the_mgt: I would pay >500€ for a phone without dalvik... wait... did that twice already... | 14:41 |
| ggabriel | i definitely did that once with the n9, no regrets :D | 14:41 |
| the_mgt | I hate to work around missing apps | 14:42 |
| ggabriel | the reality is that there isn't such a thing as missing apps | 14:42 |
| chem|st | the_mgt: the lesser we require android runtimes the more are developers forced to cut crap like "my android version is working fine" | 14:42 |
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| the_mgt | the crap is in the shop. it seems that everything useful needs to installed via warehouse | 14:42 |
| taaem | if the 1+1 port is getting finished i would buy one because the specs are good and its quite cheap and then i would put Sailfish OS on it :P | 14:43 |
| the_mgt | and I do not really feel comfortable in trusting these tools | 14:43 |
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| * Stskeeps would have loved to see sailfishos on a device like the yota phone | 14:43 | |
| the_mgt | that too | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | really nice specs, nice epd display, beautiful amoled.. | 14:43 |
| taaem | Stskeeps: yees | 14:43 |
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| chem|st | Stskeeps: BB Passport | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: after reading 'losing the signal' there's no way in hell i will ever buy anything BB. | 14:44 |
| taaem | but they got bought :P | 14:44 |
| taaem | BB Priv :P | 14:44 |
| chem|st | Stskeeps: the question persists, where is my Jolla-Keyboard? | 14:45 |
| taaem | Stskeeps: so no hope for a YotaPhone 3 with sailfish? | 14:45 |
| Stskeeps | taaem: i have no idea, and if i did, i wouldn't say it here | 14:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:45 |
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| chem|st | best answer ever... | 14:46 |
| Stskeeps | chem|st: i think somebody ported to motorola physical keyboard device | 14:46 |
| chem|st | if I tell you I'd need to destroy the internet | 14:46 |
| kimmoli | just make ddos to 127.0.0.1 ? | 14:47 |
| lainwir3d | did you know that if you type "google" into google, you can break the internet ? | 14:47 |
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| chem|st | kimmoli: not my connection... | 14:47 |
| jonwil | What surprises me is that we haven't seen some group out there set the goal of producing a phone platform (ideally hardware and software) aimed at people who have seen all the NSA leaks and things and want a device that is as hard as possible for the bad guys to get into. Given how many people have jumped into the "I want to stop the government spying on me" camp after the Snowden revelations, I a | 14:49 |
| jonwil | m sure there would be a market for such a device... | 14:49 |
| ggabriel | wasn't ssh talking about that? | 14:50 |
| ggabriel | also, people forget about privacy when they see the price tag | 14:50 |
| taaem | wasn't BB once up to that? | 14:50 |
| jonwil | If you are using off-the-shelf bits, the price doesn't need to be so high | 14:50 |
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| taaem | but hw is hard... | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | not in this case, when ios/android are comoditised as they are | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | having said that, apple apparently told a US court that their latest devices are impossible to break into (so that they can't give a judge information off somebody's ithing) | 14:53 |
| nh1402 | were the sales that bad with those phones with hw keyboards that they weren't commercially successful? | 14:53 |
| jonwil | So find an existing phone (android e.g.) that has the hardware you want (and no lockdowns or restrictions) and write a privacy/security/anti-spying focused OS for it, then you dont need to worry about the high cost of hardware | 14:53 |
| taaem | nh1402: look at BlackBerry | 14:53 |
| nh1402 | a landscape one | 14:53 |
| ggabriel | jonwil: so, "write the OS" is free? :) | 14:54 |
| taaem | jonwil: isn't that nearly that what is Jolla doing.... | 14:54 |
| nh1402 | Sailfish Secure | 14:54 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: only problem is that if you have unlockable bootloader you can easily fall for the evil maid attack | 14:54 |
| Stskeeps | if i could personally relock with my own keys, then i would be happy enough with a device | 14:54 |
| Yaniel | > find an existing phone that has no lockdowns | 14:54 |
| lainwir3d | evil maid ? | 14:55 |
| mornfall | put your phone under a pillow | 14:55 |
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| Stskeeps | http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/evil-maid-attack | 14:55 |
| lainwir3d | Like your maid is gonna reflash your phone ? | 14:55 |
| mornfall | lainwir3d: a top-rated spy dressed up as a maid, clearly | 14:55 |
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| lainwir3d | haha | 14:55 |
| Stskeeps | you would be surprised how big possibility that is in some of the countries i travel in.. | 14:55 |
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| mornfall | Stskeeps: I don't think a locked bootloader is going to stop a (sufficiently advanced) evil maid | 14:56 |
| Smar | I wouldn’t want to keep any real information on phone anyway :) | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | mornfall: sure, but you shouldn't make it too easy anyway | 14:56 |
| nh1402 | could you not solder on a new bootloader to replace the locked one | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | https://lwn.net/Articles/359145/ | 14:56 |
| nh1402 | or even just remove the flash chips and access the data | 14:56 |
| jonwil | full disk encryption will take care of offline access to the memory chips | 14:57 |
| taaem | if you have the hardware could you just read off the information from emmc? | 14:57 |
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| mornfall | „Thus, a Bitlocker user that is confident that he or she entered the correct password, but the OS didn't boot correctly, should destroy the laptop.“ | 14:59 |
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| jonwil | I would be willing to bet money that if the NSA or FBI or other US government agency went to Apple and said "hey, we need a modified image for an i | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | anyway, tld;r, i wish i had a device where i could 1) sign my boot images 2) set up my own keys for the device to accept | 15:02 |
| ggabriel | interestingly, i tried to a) restrict boot to hard drive only in hte laptop and then b) lock up the bios with a password | 15:03 |
| jonwil | I would be willing to bet money that if the NSA or FBI or other US government agency went to Apple and said "hey, we need a modified image for an iphone that does xyz that we can install on our target device"combined with a national security request or something, Apple would probably comply (even more so if they actually had a warrant) | 15:03 |
| ggabriel | and i can't do b) because it's a business laptop and the company doesn't want me to do that | 15:03 |
| ggabriel | so evil maid is easy on it | 15:03 |
| Stskeeps | ggabriel: current set of big companies are stupid in that regard | 15:04 |
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| jonwil | As for what stskeeps said, there are PCs with UEFI that can do exactly that (only boot signed images and let you control the keys in the BIOS) | 15:04 |
| ggabriel | it's easier to send people to [insert an insecure country here] with a clean laptop | 15:04 |
| mornfall | well, nobody knows if the SoC won't accept a magic string on the TTL or something like that to subvert the bootloader | 15:05 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: true, nothing is ever 100% secure | 15:05 |
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| ggabriel | it depends how paranoid you are :P | 15:05 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: UEFI is a hairy ball of crap though :) | 15:06 |
| Stskeeps | mornfall: heh, yeah | 15:06 |
| mornfall | sounds like you prefer u-boot | 15:06 |
| mornfall | (over uefi) | 15:06 |
| ar | https://together.jolla.com/question/116848/bug-no-favourites-in-settings-on-20010/ - this one made me sad | 15:06 |
| ar | Stskeeps: it's better than legacy bios | 15:06 |
| Stskeeps | ar: it's in the events view? | 15:06 |
| Stskeeps | ar: yeah, but i've been on the implementor side of it ;) | 15:06 |
| ar | Stskeeps: i'm corebooting my new-old laptop (x220) now and i do intend to put edk2/TianoCore there as a payload. with secureboot if possible | 15:07 |
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| lainwir3d | yeah, quick settings in event view is nice. The only thing I miss is being able to put a full menu quick settings (like a bluetooth icon that sends to to the bluetooth tab of the settings) | 15:08 |
| lainwir3d | But well, I'll survive. | 15:08 |
| mornfall | lainwir3d: you can also do that | 15:08 |
| Stskeeps | it's all muscle memory, you'll have it down in no time, though.. | 15:08 |
| ar | Stskeeps: btw, this one confused me on the tram today: https://together.jolla.com/question/116845/bug-update-to-20010-changes-internet-sharing-ssid-name/ | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | ar: yeah that's a pita | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | ar: hit me too | 15:09 |
| lainwir3d | mornfall: really ? Didn't manage to do it. I'll try again | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | i think it's gone after 2.0.0 though | 15:09 |
| mcfrisk | hmm, friends giving up on jolla after 2.0 update broke their use cases | 15:09 |
| ar | mcfrisk: which ones? | 15:09 |
| ar | (use cases) | 15:09 |
| Stskeeps | mcfrisk: either people really love it and are loud about it, or they hate it with a passion worse than satan | 15:10 |
| mornfall | lainwir3d: events->shortcuts->second block (shortcuts) | 15:10 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:10 |
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| lainwir3d | oops, forgot to mention to QA that my rpm doesn't pass auto rpmvalidator because of the new icon sizes and the outdated rpmvalidator tool in the latest sdk :-/ | 15:10 |
| lainwir3d | er, wrong channel | 15:10 |
| mcfrisk | don't know which use cases, but some were rather unhappy. I don't dare to update. | 15:10 |
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| Yaniel | 2.0.0 > 1.9.x at any rate | 15:11 |
| lainwir3d | mornfall: holy crap. That was a flickable :-P | 15:11 |
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| lainwir3d | mornfall: thanks :-) | 15:11 |
| jonwil | in terms of hardware backdoors, are there any companes making SOCs and chips suitable for mobile devices that aren't based in countries complicit in the NSA spying? | 15:11 |
| ggabriel | nokia | 15:12 |
| ggabriel | oh, wait | 15:12 |
| taaem | Mediatek is Asia? | 15:12 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: in practice everything is made in china, but yeah, mediatek is one option | 15:12 |
| Stskeeps | with all it's problems | 15:12 |
| mcfrisk | I remember fixing mms settings with german O2 in early 2014, now it seems settings are still in place and correct but mms reception is just broken on 1.1.9.28 | 15:12 |
| taaem | But their Open Source stuff is well mmh | 15:13 |
| jonwil | Broadcom and Qualcomm are USA so those are out | 15:13 |
| Stskeeps | i've kind of given up on any kind of sanity in the hw adaptation space | 15:13 |
| jonwil | As are Freescale and TI | 15:13 |
| chem|st | mcfrisk: that might just be o2 | 15:13 |
| taaem | TI doesn't produce any SoCs anymore afaik | 15:13 |
| mcfrisk | jolla browser is also, well, feeling bad to use when pages don't render completely, half black screens, then back button only works on some pages... | 15:13 |
| mornfall | lainwir3d: the real problem I think is that Presence is missing from that list :P | 15:14 |
| lainwir3d | mornfall: yeah, just noticed that. | 15:14 |
| lainwir3d | would have been quite useful | 15:14 |
| mcfrisk | chem|st: yes, o2 might suck too, but not this bad. I remember that mms reception worked at some point. | 15:14 |
| lainwir3d | hopefully next update | 15:14 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: ingenic is kinda looking curious | 15:14 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: http://www.ingenic.cn/en/?newton/id/1.html | 15:14 |
| mornfall | taaem: they probably make Sitara's | 15:14 |
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| taaem | Stskeeps: MIPS based processor so no arm? | 15:15 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, mips based | 15:15 |
| Stskeeps | but who cares nowadays :) | 15:15 |
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| jonwil | do any Chinese companies make cellular radio chipsets or are all the cellular radio makers in countries that are part of the spying? | 15:17 |
| sharpneli | Yeah. They're just the usual little-endian 32 or 64bit machines. | 15:17 |
| ggabriel | jonwil: are you assuming china doesn't spy? :) | 15:17 |
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| jonwil | China spies. But not for the NSA | 15:17 |
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| ggabriel | well, let's be fair for once with the USA - one doesn't want to be spied by anybody, not only the NSA | 15:18 |
| jonwil | True | 15:18 |
| mornfall | maybe some guys would like to be spied on by pretty girls | 15:19 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: those guys can go to ashley madison, they have bots for that | 15:19 |
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| mornfall | bots don't quite count | 15:21 |
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| lainwir3d | depends on bots | 15:22 |
| lainwir3d | I wouldn't mind pretty bots | 15:22 |
| lainwir3d | with a beautiful robot body | 15:22 |
| Stskeeps | jonwil: mediatek makes cellular i think | 15:25 |
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| jonwil | Even ignoring the hardware question, there seems to be a fair bit of overlap between "people who dont like the fact that the whole world is spying on them and their privacy is non-existent" and "people who like to write computer software for fun" which is why I am surprised we haven't seen more done in the area of software that is harder to spy on. | 15:34 |
| jonwil | I say overlap in the sense that there are a fair whack of people who fall into both categories | 15:35 |
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| jonwil | I have an idea in my head for a new secure chat program but I dont know the first thing about designing network protocols or dealing with cryptography (I have read just enough Bruce Schchneier cryptography stuff to know that trying to design anything involving cryptography would be a Bad Idea(TM) ) | 15:38 |
| mornfall | jonwil: ricochet.im | 15:38 |
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| wysiwtf | a new chat client with encryption! | 15:39 |
| wysiwtf | now theres an idea! | 15:39 |
| wysiwtf | :p | 15:39 |
| jonwil | Ooh nice, someone has already invented the thing I thought of (I figured it had to have been done) | 15:39 |
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| ggabriel | jonwil: you mean like xmpp over ssl? | 15:40 |
| ggabriel | which has been around for years and years | 15:40 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: no amount of ssl can make xmpp secure | 15:40 |
| ggabriel | no amount of anything can make anything secure | 15:41 |
| ggabriel | but ssl will add encryption | 15:41 |
| jonwil | IMO there are too many problems with SSL/TLS and too many flaws that can only be truly fixed with a new clean-slate protocol | 15:41 |
| ggabriel | meh | 15:41 |
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| ggabriel | sorry for the negativity but i think a clean slate protocol will just copy all the flaws of ssl/tls | 15:42 |
| chem|st | jonwil: in a world where people rather use whatsapp and then tell that they do not have a facebook account as they do not want to be spied on by fb... I just cannot get my head around using modern communication services anymore, at some point I will just stop renewing my mobile contract | 15:42 |
| chem|st | go back to paper and landlines | 15:42 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: the problem is not with ssl as such, but chat is ill use for ssl | 15:42 |
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| ggabriel | mornfall: why? | 15:42 |
| jonwil | I am one of those people who has less of a problem with big companies (like Google) spying on me than with governments spying on me | 15:42 |
| ggabriel | ssl can encrypt an elephant if you divide it in packets | 15:43 |
| Lieke_ | i'd just need otr support on my jolla | 15:43 |
| chem|st | Lieke_: the problem is not me getting OTR... the problem is getting others to use it too | 15:43 |
| jonwil | I dont have a Facebook account because of some of the crap associated with that (like the real names policy) and I dont have a Google Plus account for the same reasons | 15:43 |
| ggabriel | Lieke_: "that's just software that needs developing" :P | 15:43 |
| ggabriel | jonwil: well, you don't "have" to give them your real name ;) | 15:43 |
| Lieke_ | well, my friends do use otr | 15:44 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: because the server is the adversary in chat apps | 15:44 |
| ggabriel | what chem|st points out about OTR is vrey true | 15:44 |
| chem|st | jonwil: what realname policy?! no sane person uses a realname on the interwebs | 15:44 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: talking to your adversary securely is still talking to your adversary | 15:44 |
| ggabriel | there's at least 1 obscure xmpp client for android that supports it | 15:44 |
| chem|st | jonwil: I am a public figure, that is something different | 15:44 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: depends on the server... the server you can host | 15:44 |
| jonwil | in any case I choose not to use a Facebook account | 15:44 |
| ggabriel | and if you want something on top of that, there is OTR | 15:44 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: then you become the adversary to the rest of your users... does not help | 15:45 |
| ggabriel | bue even if everybody used OTR, do you think they'll exchange their keys securely? | 15:45 |
| mornfall | ggabriel: and if you federate, it gets even worse | 15:45 |
| jonwil | So you do end-to-end encryption | 15:45 |
| mornfall | yes, end-to-end (= OTR) prevents the adversary (= server) from seeing what you say | 15:45 |
| mornfall | it still sees when you say something and to whom | 15:45 |
| mornfall | and yes, SMTP is about the same | 15:46 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: there are limits | 15:46 |
| ggabriel | like, physical limits | 15:46 |
| ggabriel | but anyway... use xmpp+ssl, add otr | 15:47 |
| ggabriel | you should be fairly ok | 15:47 |
| ggabriel | assuming you exchanged the otr keys securely | 15:47 |
| ggabriel | which is a big assumption | 15:47 |
| mornfall | otr doesn't really fit my usecase | 15:48 |
| ggabriel | what is your use case? | 15:48 |
| mornfall | (and I think that's the case for most people) | 15:48 |
| mornfall | OTR has suppression of evidence as primary goal, which means it'll suppress logging | 15:49 |
| ggabriel | we could use quantum entanglement so that nobody knows who's talking to whom, but i don't think that we're there just yet | 15:50 |
| mornfall | I don't really care about physical adversaries that much, especially not if it costs a lot in terms of convenience | 15:50 |
| ggabriel | otr suppresses logging? uhm... i had to ask somebody to switch it off in pidgin specifically, so i don't think so | 15:50 |
| mornfall | it doesn't? interesting | 15:50 |
| ggabriel | this was last year though, maybe it changed | 15:51 |
| mornfall | isn't that odd? it says so right in the name, 'off the record' | 15:51 |
| ggabriel | thinking about it... | 15:51 |
| ggabriel | mornfall: :) | 15:51 |
| ggabriel | in newer versions they did make a case about exchanging keys | 15:51 |
| mornfall | but then that's pidgin | 15:51 |
| ggabriel | as in how important that is | 15:51 |
| ggabriel | as in how important that is | 15:53 |
| ggabriel | oops, sorry | 15:53 |
| jonwil | that ricochet program seems like its pretty good, its got forward secrecy and some other good stuff. Only negative is that its going through Tor (which makes it an issue for people who for whatever reason cant use Tor) and also that its using weaker encryption like SHA1 | 15:58 |
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| Yaniel | jonwil: have you checked tox | 15:59 |
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| Yaniel | it's p2p which IMO makes it even better | 15:59 |
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| jonwil | Yeah Tox looks even better | 16:03 |
| Sail0r | tox has been robbed ^^ | 16:03 |
| jonwil | Only thing I cant find about regarding Tox is whether they are using good crypto (e.g. forward secrecy) or not | 16:03 |
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| Yaniel | AFAIk they are using that | 16:04 |
| jonwil | for a chat program you want encryption such that even with a full packet capture of the conversation AND access to both machines, its still not possible to decrypt the data | 16:04 |
| Yaniel | but the code has not been audited yet | 16:04 |
| Sail0r | https://blog.tox.chat/2015/07/current-situation-3/ | 16:04 |
| HtheB | tigeli: hi! | 16:05 |
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| nh1402 | anyone know of an open source c++ decentralised p2p library | 16:10 |
| Yaniel | we were just talking about tox | 16:11 |
| Yaniel | libtoxcore is C but otherwise it is just that | 16:11 |
| Yaniel | buut I'm not sure that is what you want | 16:12 |
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| Yaniel | and development related questions go to #sailfishos | 16:12 |
| nh1402 | i'm making a messaging app | 16:12 |
| Yaniel | in that case you might want to check out tox | 16:12 |
| nh1402 | and want to use the p2p library for that and games | 16:13 |
| Yaniel | there is a sailfish client for it already, called cyanide | 16:13 |
| nh1402 | and want them to share the p2p connection so you can do online voice calls while playing games | 16:13 |
| nh1402 | and video | 16:14 |
| nh1402 | because why not | 16:14 |
| Yaniel | sure, don't forget the unicorns | 16:14 |
| Yaniel | anyway you might find #tox interesting | 16:14 |
| nh1402 | it's going to be made, it's not just a dream | 16:15 |
| Yaniel | I'm serious | 16:16 |
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| nh1402 | so am I | 16:17 |
| Yaniel | (maybe a tiny bit less so about the unicorns) | 16:17 |
| nh1402 | I made a basic messaging app implementing aes and rsa in java for my dissertation, and after working on some extra features will focus on encryption and p2p | 16:18 |
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| Yaniel | well, tox is pretty much exactly what you have listed | 16:19 |
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| Yaniel | nobody has tried to use it in a game AFAIK but it has been considered | 16:19 |
| nh1402 | thats suggesting that I'm still working on my dissertation, this is a follow on project | 16:19 |
| nh1402 | after all the research that I've done on open source decentralised p2p libraries, this did not come up | 16:21 |
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| ggabriel | so, in this case tox works roughly like xmpp+otr: https://github.com/irungentoo/toxcore/blob/master/docs/TCP_Network.txt | 16:29 |
| ggabriel | i had to dig this up as i didn't undertsand how p2p works behind nat's and firewalls and all that fun | 16:29 |
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| mornfall | nh1402: tox, ricochet are both p2p, encrypted chat apps that already exist | 16:34 |
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| nh1402 | mine has text formatting, UI customisation, and works with sms | 16:38 |
| nh1402 | p2p and game integration is the next step | 16:38 |
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| nh1402 | well for the moment it has text formatting and works with sms, working on db integration and then will work on ui customisation | 16:40 |
| Yaniel | I just wish we could burn java already | 16:42 |
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| Nicd- | Yaniel: I just had to run a java applet | 16:45 |
| Nicd- | eww | 16:45 |
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| lainwir3d | anyone knows a good code editor for sailfish ? With syntax highlighting & so on | 16:48 |
| Yaniel | vim | 16:48 |
| lainwir3d | And by code editor, I mean a non-terminal one | 16:48 |
| lainwir3d | damn, too late | 16:48 |
| lainwir3d | :P | 16:49 |
| Yaniel | :P | 16:49 |
| Smar | gvim? | 16:49 |
| Yaniel | has that been ported to wayland already? | 16:50 |
| Smar | dunno, I use xorg still | 16:50 |
| Smar | but kwrite for wayland | 16:50 |
| lainwir3d | kwrite for wayland would be awesome | 16:51 |
| lainwir3d | with vim mode | 16:51 |
| Smar | don’t kde kind of support wayland already? | 16:51 |
| Yaniel | kind of yes | 16:52 |
| lainwir3d | I think so, with KF5 | 16:52 |
| giucam | kwrite/kate work fine on wayland | 16:55 |
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| nh1402 | Yaniel: as long as Android still uses Java then Java is going to stick around, that and legacy applications | 17:12 |
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| nander | Now my jolla decided to stop playing the ringtone when it's called. Instead, after the call fails it sounds a call failed sound | 20:54 |
| nander | (network failure) | 20:54 |
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| fennekki | nander: is it making other sounds? like UI sounds? | 21:01 |
| fennekki | sometimes mine stops sounds entirely then it randomly shuts down | 21:01 |
| nander | It's making UI sounds | 21:02 |
| nander | Other than that the speed is now retardedly slow | 21:02 |
| nander | The OS is two years old now, and yet I still feel it's unreliable | 21:03 |
| nander | Modern android seems more sleek and more reliable | 21:03 |
| nander | (5.x) | 21:03 |
| nander | To me it seems like Jolla lost the battl | 21:03 |
| nander | battle* | 21:03 |
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| Yaniel | surprise, modern android is like 10 years older | 21:04 |
| Yaniel | it'd be worrying if it still wasn't usable | 21:04 |
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| nander | Yaniel, but still, when Jolla started it was UI-wise ahead of android, but android overtook it in my opinion | 21:05 |
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| Yaniel | yeah swiping is severely underused now | 21:06 |
| Yaniel | because "the market is not ready for it" | 21:06 |
| nander | It's used within apps now | 21:06 |
| nander | Rather than as an OS featur | 21:06 |
| nander | feature* | 21:06 |
| Yaniel | the problem is the really good apps have mostly reinvented the relevant stuff | 21:07 |
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| nander | Well, at least android devices don't randomly power off nearly as much as jolla's | 21:08 |
| Yaniel | haven't had issues with that | 21:08 |
| Yaniel | and isn't that more of a hw issue | 21:08 |
| Yaniel | (which, agreed, could have been taken way better care of) | 21:09 |
| nander | It's the combination that to me makes it a poor device | 21:10 |
| nander | The software is unreliable, and so is the hardware | 21:10 |
| nander | When actually using it, I can never use my jolla to get through the day | 21:10 |
| nander | Actual use is more like 6 hours | 21:10 |
| Yaniel | no problems here | 21:11 |
| Yaniel | well, depending on use | 21:11 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah i think its one of those YMMV type things | 21:12 |
| r0kk3rz | some people can go for days, some not so much | 21:12 |
| Yaniel | but yes, the overall quality varies way too much for its own good | 21:12 |
| Yaniel | between devices | 21:12 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah | 21:12 |
| Yaniel | let's just hope the fairphone port gets official soon enough | 21:14 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah who knows | 21:14 |
| r0kk3rz | but that might suffer quality issues as well, since its also a bit of an experimental device | 21:14 |
| nander | And I really really hate how I can't buy a spare battery | 21:15 |
| nander | And jolla support claims a poor battery isn't a reason for support | 21:15 |
| nander | Since it's over a year old | 21:15 |
| Yaniel | uhhh | 21:15 |
| nander | So basically it's a horrible phone now, and abandoned by it's maker after a year | 21:15 |
| Yaniel | my laptop battery was basically dead after 5 years | 21:15 |
| r0kk3rz | nander: the desire 310 battery seems to be the best we're going to get I think | 21:15 |
| nander | Which is just as bad as an android device | 21:15 |
| Yaniel | got it replaced, the new one is almost as dead after 1.5 years | 21:16 |
| nander | r0kk3rz: I actually think I'll demand a partial refund | 21:16 |
| nander | Because the product was defective by design (a) and the specifications were lies | 21:16 |
| nander | If you're going to claim replacable battery and don't offer replacement batteries | 21:16 |
| r0kk3rz | nander: that was always a risk when you buy a phone from a startup, there was no guarantee that jolla would still be sailing two years after the fact | 21:16 |
| nander | That sounds like consumer misinformation to me | 21:16 |
| nander | And if the device stops being useful due to that fact... | 21:17 |
| nander | I've missed way too many phonecalls thanks to my jolla | 21:17 |
| nander | I simply can't rely on it | 21:17 |
| Yaniel | I get calls so rarely I wouldn't even notice if I missed one or two | 21:18 |
| nander | Who knows, perhaps the battery ran out, perhaps it shut down, or rebooted and the sim isn't unlocked | 21:18 |
| the_mgt | there is a brazillion of threads about that on together.jolla.com | 21:18 |
| nander | the_mgt, and why isn't the bug fixed in software then | 21:18 |
| the_mgt | while it is sad that it is needed in the first place, most people seem to be able to fix their issues with those hints | 21:19 |
| nander | Great, the community reports bugs | 21:19 |
| nander | It's not just sad, it's insane | 21:19 |
| the_mgt | because it is a/several hardware issues | 21:19 |
| the_mgt | you can't fix a lot of hardware with a software update | 21:19 |
| nander | the_mgt: if you have hardware issues, you either supply replacement parts, or repair, or replace or refund | 21:19 |
| the_mgt | then do so and stop ranting | 21:20 |
| nander | Otherwise you're a bad company | 21:20 |
| nander | I don't want to read through threads looking for issues | 21:20 |
| nander | I want to do as a consumer is entitled to do: say: My device is broken and it's within warranty | 21:20 |
| nander | Go fix | 21:20 |
| the_mgt | but you seem to have enough time to irc about them | 21:20 |
| r0kk3rz | nander: you're perfectly free to take it up with care | 21:21 |
| kimmoli | it is not going to get fixed by its own. contact care and arrange repair. | 21:21 |
| r0kk3rz | as you say, you're a consumer, your device is within warranty, talking to care is the process | 21:21 |
| the_mgt | look, I am not happy with a bunch of things on/in my jolla phone. lots of issues got fixed by asking for a clue here or following advice from together.jolla.com | 21:21 |
| the_mgt | nothing gets fixed by ranting here | 21:22 |
| the_mgt | it only helps to blow off some steam | 21:22 |
| kimmoli | ...and seems there is a limit with steam we can handle? no? | 21:23 |
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| Yaniel | *Steeeeaamm* | 21:23 |
| the_mgt | hm, does the steam app work in dalvik? need to try | 21:24 |
| Yaniel | yes | 21:24 |
| r0kk3rz | steam? this is not engine, this is internet | 21:24 |
| r0kk3rz | on internet we have rage, not steam | 21:24 |
| Yaniel | the app works flawlessly as far as I've tried | 21:24 |
| kimmoli | internet works on dead bugs | 21:24 |
| nander | the_mgt yes, it is, but running dalvik means your battery flies away | 21:24 |
| the_mgt | mine doesnt | 21:24 |
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| the_mgt | phone works as long as most other smart phones I used. the ericson m610i was worse, but that was a prototype. the w580i was brilliant, but no smartphone | 21:26 |
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| * Yaniel pondering if it is worth looking for a new phone before summer | 21:26 | |
| the_mgt | i'd still need a phone with hardware qwertz keyboard | 21:27 |
| the_mgt | or at least a good portable bt keyboard | 21:27 |
| nh1402 | Yaniel: when is summer for you? | 21:28 |
| Yaniel | around midsummer next year | 21:28 |
| r0kk3rz | Yaniel: but what to choose?! | 21:28 |
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| the_mgt | the waytools/textblade guys are at least failing in parallel to the jolla tablet. that is one of the bitterest ironies i experienced in a while | 21:29 |
| Yaniel | the thing is I'm planning to go abroad for student exchange and I'm not sure whatever I'd get would work there | 21:29 |
| r0kk3rz | Yaniel: that entirely depends on where 'abroad' is i think | 21:29 |
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| HtheB | ' | 21:29 |
| Yaniel | east asia | 21:30 |
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| r0kk3rz | so like korea? japan? | 21:30 |
| Yaniel | probably japan, not locked yet | 21:30 |
| r0kk3rz | i had no issues with my ausphone in japan last year | 21:31 |
| r0kk3rz | same freqs as europe really | 21:31 |
| nh1402 | so gsm | 21:31 |
| r0kk3rz | pretty sure I had 3g data | 21:31 |
| r0kk3rz | since that was all my phone supported at the time | 21:32 |
| r0kk3rz | being an old htc | 21:32 |
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| nh1402 | Yaniel: what do you use your phone for | 21:32 |
| Yaniel | atm mostly for irc ^^, some web browsing when I don't have a pc at hand | 21:33 |
| Yaniel | there I suspect my focus will shift more towards email | 21:34 |
| nh1402 | what's your current phone | 21:35 |
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| r0kk3rz | Yaniel: you'll probably be fine with any euro phone, its the US you need to worry about these days | 21:35 |
| r0kk3rz | unfortunately the phone market calmed down a bit in japan from the good old days | 21:36 |
| nh1402 | Yaniel: what's your current phone, and what would your budget be | 21:37 |
| r0kk3rz | where they used to practically give away phones that were 6 months old, because they couldnt sell them anymore | 21:37 |
| Yaniel | current is jolla1 | 21:37 |
| nh1402 | I believe Sharp are big in Japan | 21:37 |
| nh1402 | the Aquos series | 21:37 |
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| r0kk3rz | yeah, because its japanese | 21:37 |
| r0kk3rz | if its japanese then its big in japan, thats how it works | 21:38 |
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| nh1402 | I'm aware, I was just mentioning it since they don't really release many phones outside of Japan | 21:38 |
| nh1402 | Sony aren't actually that big anymore in Japan I don't think, they still have a good market share but not as much as they used to. | 21:39 |
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| r0kk3rz | didnt really pay that much attention to what people were using when i was there | 21:40 |
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| r0kk3rz | im sure i saw loads of iphones | 21:40 |
| nh1402 | disgusting | 21:40 |
| r0kk3rz | but all the random household appliances were all japanese | 21:41 |
| nh1402 | hate the way Apple talk down to you during their keynotes | 21:43 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: people love that though, i assume anyway, because they keep lapping it up | 21:44 |
| nh1402 | they are brainwashed | 21:44 |
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| r0kk3rz | quite possibly | 21:44 |
| r0kk3rz | but when your attention span can only just last through a buzzfeed list article, maybe you need to be talked down to | 21:45 |
| nh1402 | they think because Apple have done it, it's better. "Oh the camera's better", "Oh the screen is better", "the custom keyboards are better" | 21:45 |
| nh1402 | camera is made by Sony not Apple, Screen is made by JDI not Apple | 21:46 |
| r0kk3rz | well the most important part of the 'camera' is the image processor | 21:46 |
| nh1402 | and then there's the iOS features which were blatently ripped off from Android and they automatically assume it's better. | 21:47 |
| r0kk3rz | which is designed by apple at least, manufacturered by samsung/tsmc | 21:47 |
| nh1402 | true, but the latest one has gone down hill, not nearly as good. | 21:48 |
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| nh1402 | then there's the battery they shrink the battery every year, they never mention the amount of RAM (or the battery capacity) | 21:48 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: your point can be summarized by 'slick marketing works' | 21:48 |
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| nh1402 | it's complete BS, I sat through watching one of the keynotes once via a livestream for about a minute or so, and the amount of BS that they say is ridiculous | 21:50 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah its funny | 21:50 |
| nh1402 | that photo burst thing, is just a 1 second video | 21:50 |
| r0kk3rz | the language they use is completely over the top | 21:50 |
| r0kk3rz | i loved the leadup to the iphone 6 reveal | 21:50 |
| nh1402 | I'm sure I'm going to regret this but what was it | 21:51 |
| nh1402 | i believe I removed it from memory. | 21:51 |
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| Yaniel | relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw | 21:51 |
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| Yaniel | and this was back in the Jobs days | 21:52 |
| r0kk3rz | basically "the first iphone was revolutionary, and we're set to revolutionise the world again"... | 21:52 |
| r0kk3rz | ...*big picture reveal* "Look! its got a big screen!" | 21:52 |
| nh1402 | that reminds me about the ipad pro thing, blatently ripped off from surface pro and with it running a mobile OS completely useless | 21:53 |
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| nh1402 | and obscenely expensive | 21:53 |
| nh1402 | could make a very good gaming pc for that price which beats it in every way | 21:53 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: the funny thing is, people have wanted a tablet with OSX since they released the ipad | 21:54 |
| nh1402 | and they *still* haven't made one. | 21:54 |
| r0kk3rz | indeed | 21:54 |
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| nh1402 | http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/09/comic-predicted-ipad-pro-keyboard/ | 21:55 |
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| nh1402 | why would you put 4 speakers facing away from the user, placed exactly where you would hold the damn thing | 21:56 |
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| nh1402 | so predictable | 21:56 |
| nh1402 | r0kk3rz: did you here that Jim Keller is apparently working at Samsung now | 21:58 |
| r0kk3rz | i wonder if jobs were still around, whether he would have gone full 'fuck it we're doing 5 blades' yet | 21:58 |
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| r0kk3rz | nh1402: orly? wonder what ol sammy has him doing | 21:59 |
| nh1402 | well so far they've just been putting standard ARM cores in their SoCs. So he's going to design a custom one for them, just like he's done for AMD and Apple | 22:01 |
| nh1402 | will be interesting to see where he jumps to next in 2 or 3 years time | 22:01 |
| nh1402 | r0kk3rz: Jobs is a lot more stubborn than Cook, He was reluctant to up the screen size for the iPhone 5 I'm quite sure he wouldn't have agreed to the iPhone 6 size and definitely not the 6 plus. | 22:04 |
| Yaniel | I wish he was still around to disagree on those | 22:04 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: thats my point, he wouldnt follow his competitors, he would go 'fuck it we're doing 5 blades' | 22:05 |
| nh1402 | and I'm not sure if that was sarcasm earlier, I'm sure quite a lot of people don't know who Jim Keller is and what he's capable of. | 22:05 |
| nh1402 | what do you mean by 5 blades | 22:05 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-11056 | 22:06 |
| nh1402 | that's what they're like, we need to make the phone thinner, and thinner | 22:09 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah | 22:09 |
| nh1402 | phones are coming with 4gb ram now, and *now* they decide to fit 2gb. | 22:10 |
| nh1402 | a few years ago phones were quad core and they decided to go dual-core | 22:11 |
| jonwil | When was the last time Apple came up with something genuinely new rather than taking something someone else made, calling it new, convincing the USPTO that it was new and getting a BS patent on it that they can then use to sue all the Android guys? | 22:12 |
| nh1402 | next year they'll probably fit a fhd screen into the 7 when all the others have had it for 3 or 4 years, phones are even coming out with 4k displays | 22:12 |
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| nh1402 | jonwil: well force touch on their laptops, they were bound to put it on their phones, I'm sure they're in the process of suing Huawei now | 22:13 |
| nh1402 | and Synaptics when phones come out with their touch panels. | 22:14 |
| nh1402 | but before that, nothing. | 22:15 |
| nh1402 | jonwil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0 | 22:15 |
| jonwil | The 2 biggest reasons I refuse to have anything to do with Apple are their BS lawsuits against everyone else (seems like the way business works these days is that if you cant compete, sue your competitors out of business) and their total lock-down of the devices | 22:15 |
| r0kk3rz | tim cook might not be quite as ruthless on the law suit front | 22:16 |
| Yaniel | I take it you boycot MS and Google as well then? | 22:16 |
| r0kk3rz | but yeah, total lockdown of devices is a bit of a turn off | 22:16 |
| jonwil | Google isn't suing all their competitors like Apple is | 22:17 |
| r0kk3rz | they all do it to a certain extent | 22:17 |
| nh1402 | the reasons why I refuse to buy Apple products: obscene cost, BS marketing, talking down to their customers, locked down devices, outdated technology particularly in their phones which is 3 or 4 years old. | 22:17 |
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| r0kk3rz | you have to admit though, its a working formula | 22:18 |
| nh1402 | 12mp camera first found in the Xperia T 4 years ago, 720p screen found 4 years go, dual core again 4 years ago | 22:18 |
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| jonwil | As for Microsoft, the last Microsoft product I bought was probably Windows 7 (or maybe an el-cheapo keyboard although I dont use MS keyboard or mouse now) | 22:19 |
| jonwil | I am specifically boycotting Windows 10 because of the crap and goings on | 22:20 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah i went from kinda looking forward to win10, to installing arch linux | 22:20 |
| Yaniel | haha :D | 22:21 |
| jonwil | I need Windows mostly for games that dont exist on Linux and also Visual Studio for working on mods for said games. | 22:21 |
| Yaniel | well tbh arch linux seems to work better | 22:21 |
| Yaniel | even for that | 22:21 |
| nh1402 | r0kk3rz: then look at Blackberry, they were so highly rated what like 10 years ago now, and they just fizzled out, they went all in on the teen market that when Android and the first iPhone came out, the fad died and all the teens bought iPhones. They were left with nothing. | 22:21 |
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| jonwil | I do run a Linux VM for N900 development though :) | 22:22 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: sure, things change. but 200B can buy a lot of time | 22:22 |
| nh1402 | I have no idea how they are sponsoring Mercedes F1 | 22:23 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah thats true | 22:23 |
| r0kk3rz | someone on the board must be a hamilton fan | 22:23 |
| nh1402 | I hate him | 22:23 |
| nh1402 | the team clearly favour him over Rosberg | 22:24 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah i guess its hard to be truely impartial | 22:24 |
| nh1402 | you can see it on their face when it cuts to them when Rosberg beats him | 22:24 |
| r0kk3rz | well, merc is a german brand, but the team are all brits | 22:25 |
| nh1402 | no loyalty, Rosberg has been them for years now | 22:25 |
| nh1402 | Rosberg is technically German, although his father is Finnish. | 22:26 |
| r0kk3rz | i count rosberg as a fin | 22:26 |
| nh1402 | so do I | 22:26 |
| nh1402 | Lauda the non-executive chairman is Danish, right? | 22:27 |
| r0kk3rz | yes, keke rosberg is famous finnish driver, the fact that his mum is german is kinda not important | 22:27 |
| r0kk3rz | i thought lauda was german or austrian or something | 22:28 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah austrian | 22:28 |
| nh1402 | and the team principal of Mercedes defected from Williams, his wife still works at Williams as the test driver | 22:28 |
| nh1402 | my bad | 22:28 |
| nh1402 | and I'm sure he still owns some shares in Williams. | 22:29 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah probably | 22:31 |
| r0kk3rz | they are basically a satellite merc team atm | 22:32 |
| nh1402 | Bottas is really good, I believe Ferrari have been trying to get a hold of him | 22:33 |
| nh1402 | consistently outperforming his more experienced teammate who was technically world champion for a few minutes. | 22:33 |
| r0kk3rz | definitely punching above his weight thats for sure | 22:34 |
| nh1402 | I'm sure once either Williams get properly competitive or he goes to Ferrari that he'll really give Hamilton a run for his money | 22:35 |
| nh1402 | for a fraction of the salary | 22:35 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah who knows what next season will bring | 22:35 |
| r0kk3rz | hopefully a stronger renault | 22:35 |
| r0kk3rz | and a honda that can last a race | 22:36 |
| r0kk3rz | no doubt kimi has lost interest again and will go rally racing | 22:36 |
| r0kk3rz | or go to WEC | 22:37 |
| r0kk3rz | give up his ferrari spot for bottas | 22:37 |
| nh1402 | well Kimi has signed on for another year, but its clear he's lost interest again or something, he's just not performing. | 22:40 |
| jonwil | The way things are going Red Bull may show up to the first race in Australia without any engine | 22:40 |
| jonwil | Ferrari and Mercedes said no because they didn't want to give their engines to a competitor | 22:40 |
| nh1402 | I believe Hakkinen got Bottas into F1 | 22:41 |
| jonwil | Honda initially sort of said yes but then Williams exercised their veto rights and told Honda not to sell to Red Bull (Williams was probably worried that Red Bull cars with Honda engines might actually be competitive) | 22:42 |
| nh1402 | Mclaren | 22:42 |
| nh1402 | Williams have Mercedes engines | 22:42 |
| jonwil | oh yeah my mistake | 22:42 |
| r0kk3rz | i dont think RBR would run with honda engines | 22:42 |
| r0kk3rz | given their current state | 22:42 |
| nh1402 | well in the last race in those conditions the car was some what competitive | 22:42 |
| nh1402 | so it is improving | 22:43 |
| r0kk3rz | yeah its a good chassis, but so far down on power | 22:43 |
| jonwil | Seems like the only hope Red Bull have is if they can kiss and make up with Renault, get Renault engines for 2016 and throw everything into making those engines competitive with the Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda engines | 22:43 |
| nh1402 | and if the deal with Red Bull and VW goes through then they'll eventually make their own engine | 22:43 |
| jonwil | The deal with VW failed because of the whole diesel scandal causing VW to drop any forward-looking projects they didn't need to keep to focus on dieselgate | 22:44 |
| nh1402 | well there's always Cosworth engines, but they aren't competitive either | 22:44 |
| r0kk3rz | like i said to the guys at work; I'll make them an engine! for that many million anyway | 22:44 |
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| M4rtinK | if there just were not so many pesky rules in the competition :) | 22:45 |
| nh1402 | don't you dare use the word "gate" in anything but a gate and fence related discussion | 22:45 |
| r0kk3rz | do cosworth even have a v6 turbo hybrid thing these days? | 22:45 |
| M4rtinK | everything would be simpler, cheaper and faster :) | 22:45 |
| M4rtinK | (and much more dangerous :D) | 22:45 |
| nh1402 | well no one has signed on with them, but I'm sure they can whip something up as soon as a deal is signed | 22:46 |
| nh1402 | and I'm sure it would outperform the Honda engine ! | 22:46 |
| r0kk3rz | i'm not so sure about that, these new fangled whatsits seem to be a whole new ball game | 22:47 |
| nh1402 | aren't there new rules next year, wider rear tyres and some other weird stuff about refuelling | 22:47 |
| r0kk3rz | no refuel, big tyres | 22:47 |
| r0kk3rz | aero changes | 22:47 |
| r0kk3rz | secondary exhaust | 22:47 |
| nh1402 | there was something about refueling not proper refueling but sonthing | 22:47 |
| r0kk3rz | unless they've changed their mind again | 22:48 |
| M4rtinK | aerial refueling ? :) | 22:48 |
| r0kk3rz | drone refuelling | 22:48 |
| M4rtinK | drones with fuel cans ? :) | 22:48 |
| nh1402 | https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/headlines/2015/5/refuelling-set-to-return-in-2017.html | 22:48 |
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| r0kk3rz | yeah they scrapped that idea | 22:48 |
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| nh1402 | What I don't get is why F1 cars don't use airless tyres | 22:50 |
| r0kk3rz | airless tyres are heavy | 22:50 |
| jonwil | I recon F1 these days has far too many rules and regulations and BS. Go back to the days of anything goes where teams could push the limits and use wind tunnels to get that extra tiny fraction of a second out of their cars and stuff. | 22:50 |
| jonwil | If the F1 authorities are worried about costs, just impose a spending cap to make it fair on everyone | 22:51 |
| jonwil | Some teams would spend more on having the best drivers | 22:51 |
| jonwil | and some would spend more on having the best cars | 22:51 |
| nh1402 | r0kk3rz but it could mean less suspension work | 22:51 |
| r0kk3rz | nh1402: less? the suspension doesnt do much already, its all tyre sidewall | 22:51 |
| M4rtinK | I can see just gaming the complicated rules as a sport/game in itself :) | 22:52 |
| nh1402 | jonwil: they've talked about spending caps for years, the big teams always threaten to leave if they enforce it | 22:52 |
| r0kk3rz | less give in tyres would mean more suspension work, which is probably better because thats what its for | 22:52 |
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| nh1402 | theres more give in airless tyres | 22:53 |
| r0kk3rz | define airless? | 22:54 |
| r0kk3rz | you mean solid rubber or a tweel? | 22:54 |
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| nh1402 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKEN07C2E8 | 22:55 |
| nh1402 | tweel | 22:55 |
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| r0kk3rz | ah | 22:55 |
| r0kk3rz | find me one that can do 300kph without self destructing | 22:55 |
| nh1402 | bridgestone and michelin make them but pirelli don't as far as I know. | 22:56 |
| nh1402 | haven't seen any sports car with them so it's unknown | 22:56 |
| nh1402 | could be better, could be worse | 22:56 |
| r0kk3rz | thats my point, the reason why we dont see them on road cars is that they're shithouse at speed | 22:57 |
| nh1402 | have they even been tested at speed | 22:57 |
| r0kk3rz | great for slow speed offroad stuff though | 22:57 |
| r0kk3rz | thats why the military use them | 22:57 |
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| nh1402 | but have they been tested at speed | 22:59 |
| nh1402 | another thing that I don't know why the f1 cars haven't incorporated is bladeless fans into the airducts. | 22:59 |
| r0kk3rz | well yeah, and by speed i mean normal roadcar type speeds | 22:59 |
| nh1402 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HccKHIK2fj0 according to this video it looks like it works | 23:01 |
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| nh1402 | and that was 6 years ago, it must have improved since then | 23:02 |
| r0kk3rz | im familiarish with the tech, but obviously still in development | 23:02 |
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| nh1402 | it's funny how its turned from what phone Yaniel should get -> phones in Japan -> iPhones in Japan -> Digusting Apple -> Blackberry kicked between the legs when Android and the first iPhone came about -> how Blackberry are sponsoring Mercedes F1 -> F1 regulations -> airless tyres | 23:11 |
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| r0kk3rz | yeah thats what happens when you have know-it-alls with an opinion on everything | 23:17 |
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| r0kk3rz | from consumer advice to business strategy, to high tech car design | 23:17 |
| nh1402 | but still no one is helping with android app support for Sailfish | 23:20 |
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| nh1402 | I'm hoping I can get my input app working this week, then all thats left is to stabilise Android, find a way to get back to Sailfish when you're done with the Android app, and then the extremely difficult task of customising the Android ROM to get the Android apps showing within Sailfish | 23:26 |
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