Friday, 2013-05-24

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dm8tbrmoaning05:00
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Sagedm8tbr: morning05:20
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Sagew00t: where is that controlpanel you made with qml?05:40
Sagebroke image builds and need to fix it a bit you are still missing some deps ;)05:41
Sageor hmmp... I cant find it at all05:43
* Sage ponders what is wrong05:45
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Sageah found it05:50
Sagew00t: about the obsoletes with the new stuff you need also to obsolete/provide the stuff that is obsoleted by the current stuff ;)05:51
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w00tSage: ehh.. I did, what do you think is missing?07:41
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Sagew00t: https://build.merproject.org/package/view_file?file=nemo-control-panel-applets.spec&package=nemo-control-panel-applets&project=nemo%3Adevel%3Aux&rev=ba4182bf10238642e8b0c83ce67092ff lines 43-4407:44
Sagew00t: did you check those as well?07:44
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w00tI'll look at it shortly07:52
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w00tSage: http://qtl.me/Yuv.txt any others?08:00
Sagew00t: I don't know others atm. no.08:03
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sledgesit's frydai!09:06
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Sageah, right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY009:26
Sagesledges: thx for reminder ;)09:26
sledges:D did't think you'll catch w00t's virus as well :)09:27
sledges*friday fever soudns better09:28
Sagesledges: I think that I have just a bit more controlled version of the virus ;)09:29
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sledges:) maybe09:31
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Sagew00t: btw, run specify would help ;)09:40
w00t...09:40
w00tI blame it being too early09:41
w00twill look in a sec09:41
sledgesit's at least as late as noon in the rest of europe ;)09:42
w00tsledges: that was done at 10 :D09:43
sledgesfair play :)09:43
sledgesw00t, photos to your cats and kittens don't work from your website :)09:43
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sledgeswanted to show to my fiancèe, but failed epicly :))09:44
sledgesthey used to work months ago ;)09:44
w00tmmm09:44
w00tthat's strange09:44
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w00tthey work now09:45
sledgesok wil recheck09:46
sledgesthat's odd09:46
sledgesthanks :)09:46
w00tI fixed it ;)09:46
sledgeswe're also cat-crazy lol09:46
sledgesgot 2 at home, and another 3 stray cats wandering around outside :))09:47
w00twe're down to 3 now, the 4th one went to my MIL where he seems to be happier09:48
sledgeswindMIL ?09:48
sledges:))09:48
w00tmother in law :)09:49
sledges:))09:49
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faenilo/10:58
sledges\o10:59
faenillive from webchat with z10 xD10:59
faenili wonder if it stays connected if i minimize the browser :)10:59
sledges:))11:01
sledgeswe'll tell :D11:01
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anYchi, could someone create a "latest" symlink on the server so we can ust a static URL to download nemo?11:07
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sledgesanYc, that would never be "latest" as hours after release there would be updates pending already :)11:08
sledgesit's a rolling update11:08
sledgesso do zypper ref & dup and you'll be up to speed11:08
sledgeslatest 'snapshots' probably is what you thought about11:09
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anYcyes, I meant the snapshots, e.g., for my installer11:49
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sledgescould be done, if you argument it well, lbt might even do it for you ;)12:11
sledgesanYc, ^12:11
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SageanYc: well not sure if that helps you actually12:40
Sagee.g. http://releases.nemomobile.org/snapshots/images/0.20130411.1.NEMO.2013-04-26.1/nemo-armv7hl-n950/ contains already different tar.bz2 filename12:41
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anYcSage: no, I mean a "latest" symlink that is in here http://releases.nemomobile.org/snapshots/images/ and points to the most recent release12:57
anYcso I can add a URL to my installer that downloads the latest install image automatically12:57
anYcSage: ah sorry, misunderstood your hint12:58
anYcwell, at least the n900 directory contains generic filenames12:58
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sledgeshow about just ignore the filename and download whatever *.tar.bz2 is in there?13:00
anYcI would have to parse the index.html13:01
anYcwell, it's not that important, if it's not much trouble I think it would help13:02
sledgeswget can do it for you13:02
anYcdoes this work for http as well or only for ftp?13:02
* anYc tries13:03
sledgesthis worked for me, do download all files (crawl): wget -r -R * http://website/folder13:03
sledgeswith index.html in folder (wget automagically looks for one)13:03
sledgesso should work also: wget -r -R *.tar.bz2 http://website/folder/13:04
sledges(fingers cross(compile)d)13:04
anYcokay, it works with "-A *.suffix" -R is the opposite13:06
sledgesok, was about to suggest parameter shuffle :)13:07
sledgesto stop recursing13:07
sledgesgood!13:07
anYcbut if I browse the complete snapshot tree it creates many unneeded directories and stuff13:07
sledgesyeap, needs taming :D13:07
anYca little bit inconvenient thought compared to a "latest" symlink :)13:09
anYcthough13:09
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sledgeswell there's nothing what a little bit of python couldn't fix :)13:11
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anYc;)13:12
sledgesim sure curl also has it's brightest moments :)13:13
SageanYc: maybe something like https://gitorious.org/image-building-tools/daily-image-builder/blobs/master/builder.py#line15613:27
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sledgeswelcome bullet9mm :)15:51
bullet9mmhi sledges!15:51
sledgeshere's the current status: https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Status/Matrix15:52
sledgeson n900 many things untested15:52
sledgesbut runs here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1dZ4vghY415:52
sledges(one of the latest images)15:52
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bullet9mmyeah! I have already see this video, it's the reason for my questions.  :)  ...in 2012 I installed nemo but was a very very very unstable version and at the end I reflash my n900...but this seems more stable! When I have time I'll try to reinstall it. Thanks a lot sledges!15:57
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sledgesno probs bullet9mm , it's still not for end-users but geeks can do just fine15:58
sledgesand you can always run it on sd card15:58
sledgesshould not corrupt your freemantle15:58
bullet9mmyeah! thanks a lot!! se you next time!15:59
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sledgesCya!16:00
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Male55Hin Yunta!16:13
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Merbot`phaeron lbt sage SR#316 waiting for review at https://build.merproject.org//request/show/31618:33
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Merbot`phaeron lbt sage SR#314 Rejected promotion request18:56
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Merbot`phaeron lbt sage SR#315 waiting for review at https://build.merproject.org//request/show/31519:00
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yuntaMale55: Hin!20:03
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BlackRabbitHello all.20:33
BlackRabbitI have a question about nemo.20:33
BlackRabbitanyone help me?20:33
specialgo ahead and ask20:34
BlackRabbitBefore I ask, I should say that I have been asking this question for about 18 months, about various mobile OS's, and each time I ask, the respondents generally like to avoid the question because it reveals something that they would rather not have revealed, if you know wha tI mean.20:35
BlackRabbitright now, if I write an application for Ubuntu, that binds to a Ethernet device driver that is inside the machine, and interacts with that driver using open()/close()/read()/write()/ioctl(), etc....20:36
BlackRabbitthere will be no problem.20:36
BlackRabbitI would like to know if I will be able to do the same thing with Nemo.20:36
BlackRabbitin particular, what I want do is...20:37
BlackRabbit(1) write the application20:37
BlackRabbit(2) post it on my web site20:37
specialnemo has no security framework beyond standard unix permissions, at present20:37
BlackRabbit(3) let my customer who is a normal-user who does not know how to root his/her phone, nor is s/he interested in learning20:37
BlackRabbitok, so you do understand.20:38
BlackRabbitthe million-$ question is:20:38
BlackRabbitwhat is the end-result going to look like?20:38
specialthere is no end result :)20:38
BlackRabbitfor example, Linux has no standard restrictions right now20:38
BlackRabbitforgive me, but I am very very skeptical of that statement. after all, every major mobile OEM has made the same claim...20:38
w00tBlackRabbit: there is no major mobile OEM here20:39
BlackRabbit"Those other guys claim to be open, but they are not. We are the ones who are open. Come, hug us."20:39
specialnemo isn't an OEM, nemo is just OSS.20:39
w00tnemo is an open source project, end of story20:39
BlackRabbiti only learned about Nemo 5 mins ago...lemme take another look.20:39
w00twe don't produce devices, we have adaptations to existing hardware, and a software stack to run on them20:40
BlackRabbitso sure.20:40
BlackRabbitthe same could be said of vanilla Linux.20:40
BlackRabbitthat's part of the problem, IMHO.20:40
BlackRabbitright? the very same thing could be said of vanilla Linux - we don't make the devices, we make completely open software that is free to be downloaded, modified, etc. by anyboxy.20:40
BlackRabbit*anybody20:40
specialwell yes, though nemo is more comparable to one of the free Linux distributions than to the kernel itself20:41
specialit brings together hardware adaptation, mobile middleware, and a UI to make a usable system; all three are open20:41
BlackRabbityes, they are open. Linux is even more open.20:42
BlackRabbitor, let's say that what you produce is completely open.20:42
BlackRabbitit's so open, the God of Open-ness is envious. :)20:42
BlackRabbitnow here comes the OEM20:43
BlackRabbit"Wow...look at this completely open OS called Nemo."20:43
BlackRabbit"I think I will make a smartphone from it."20:43
BlackRabbitso the OEM makes a smartphone, sells 10,000,000 units.20:43
BlackRabbitthe 10,000,000 customers who bough the unit, discover there is a killer audio-video-network app on the Internet.20:44
BlackRabbitthey go to download it, and install it,but it won't install.20:44
BlackRabbitbecause the app does not conform to the "framework"20:44
specialah20:44
BlackRabbitin particular, it tries to access device drivers.20:44
specialwell, nemo itself is not a consumer thing20:44
specialand what people or companies do based on nemo isn't under our control20:44
BlackRabbitof course.20:44
BlackRabbitthat last sentence you wrote, @special, is music to an OEM's ears.20:45
specialnemo *itself* will always be open and hackable, that is what it's for20:45
BlackRabbitthey ~love~ to hear people say that, especially tech people.20:45
BlackRabbitsure, but you do realize that there are a lot of developers20:45
BlackRabbit(and some users)20:45
BlackRabbitwho really don't care so much about open source (that's a given)20:46
BlackRabbitwhat they want is an open device20:46
specialmhm20:46
BlackRabbitthe OEM's play tricks with the sentiments of the open-source community. They say....20:46
specialobviously nobody can promise that a derivative of nemo will be open, *but*20:46
BlackRabbit"We are going to create a truly open platform, unlike our competitor."20:46
specialit's a lot easier to make one open than it is to make one closed, and by virtue of being based on nemo, it'd be more open than anything else currently20:47
BlackRabbitbut it still does not solve the problem.20:47
BlackRabbitin fact, it might hurt.20:47
specialsomeone basing their work on nemo is already more open than the companies developing purely in-house platforms20:48
BlackRabbit1 sec...have to levae and come back..scrolling screwed up.20:48
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BlackRabbitback20:48
BlackRabbitcan you see how it might hurt more than help?20:48
specialmm20:49
specialI don't see the problem, really20:49
BlackRabbitright now, if I write an app for any smartphone that claims to run an "open" OS...that app will be blocked. period.20:50
BlackRabbit(a certain kind of app that would run on vanilla Linux with no problem)20:50
BlackRabbitthere are a lot of developers who are frustrated by this.20:50
BlackRabbitthe OEM's are aware of the frustration20:50
BlackRabbitso to gain the mind-share of these frustrated developers, the OEM says, "We will create a new truly open platform, yada...."20:50
BlackRabbitall the developers say, "Finally, someone who understands our needs."20:51
BlackRabbitthen the developers volunteer their time to the "truly open OS"20:51
specialyeah, I understand20:51
BlackRabbitthen when it is finished, the OEM locks the platform.20:51
BlackRabbitthe source code is more open than open. But the end-result is locked down.20:51
BlackRabbitit's a trick with words. a kind of mind games that the OEM's have been using.20:52
specialso I suppose where nemo comes in here is two things:20:52
BlackRabbitlike a politician who kisses babies.20:52
special1) nemo runs on existing hardware and it is unequivocably purely open, so if you don't like the OEM's software, you can use nemo20:52
aard_BlackRabbit: that shouldn't happen with ubuntu phone, as they have lot's of gplv3-stuff, and you have the right to replace a gplv3-binary on a phone without loosing functionality. which on the other hand is the main reason why I don't expect ubuntu phone to be picked up by oems20:53
specialand 2) a commercial platform based on a full OSS platform is going to be more open by nature than one that isn't20:53
specialtrying to enforce openness with licensing (like ubuntu, yeah.) is an awful and disasterous idea20:53
BlackRabbit@special, the key word in what you wrote is "you"20:53
BlackRabbitthere are several "you"'s in involved in all of this.20:53
BlackRabbitthere is (1) us the developers (2) the hardware OEM (3) the end-user (4) the FOSS developer20:54
BlackRabbitright now, the "you" that can replace the binaries is (1)20:54
BlackRabbit(3) will never do something like that20:54
BlackRabbitever20:54
specialmm, I don't know20:54
speciala lot of people hack their androids20:54
Merbot`phaeron lbt sage SR#317 Rejected promotion request20:54
aard_BlackRabbit: quite a lot of mostly normal people root their androids20:54
speciala lot of people jailbreak their iOS devices20:54
BlackRabbitwell, of course.20:55
specialit's been made so user-friendly that anybody can do it20:55
BlackRabbitI mean, a lot of people also clean their own fuel-injectors.20:55
BlackRabbitbut more people don't.20:55
BlackRabbitwe're talking 1,000,000 people here.20:55
BlackRabbitsorry,, 1,000,000,00020:55
specialI'm pretty sure everybody here would love a commercially supported mobile platform that allowed unrestricted (but securely managed) software20:55
aard_and actually the company some of us work for is trying to do something like that20:56
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BlackRabbiti'm waiting for the "but" @special20:57
BlackRabbitand @aard_20:57
aard_in what we're working on there's no but.20:58
specialBlackRabbit: but it's hard.20:58
BlackRabbitbecause..?20:58
specialwell, we'll find out :p20:58
BlackRabbitlol20:58
specialthat's more or less what we're trying to create.20:59
BlackRabbitit's very clear to me.20:59
BlackRabbitI have seen this situation happen too many times.20:59
aard_BlackRabbit: it's harder to do secure storage of user credentials and similar things if you don't insist on doing a fully trusted boot (and nuke that data if an insecure boot attempt is made)20:59
BlackRabbityes, I know @aard [I did advanced virus detection for Symantec]21:00
specialthere is a difficult balance between giving the user security and taking control from the user21:00
aard_it's harder to do stuff like simlock some operators request (though possible if you completely handle it in the modem firmware)21:00
BlackRabbitright@special.21:00
specialpeople expect more user security from a mobile device than they do from desktops, for historical reasons21:00
special(and they're right to)21:00
BlackRabbitI look at it this way: I think we can all agree that there is plenty of so-called open devices that are locked.21:00
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BlackRabbitand as I mentioned, I did advanced virus detection, so it would be easy to convince me of the importance of security controls.21:01
BlackRabbitHowever...21:01
BlackRabbitthere is also a market for the "old model".21:01
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BlackRabbitIf you tell a person, "This device is truly open. If you don't know what you are doing, you are 100% guaranteed to be infected."21:01
BlackRabbiteven if you say that, there is still a market.21:02
BlackRabbitthere are people who will say, "Yeah, yea,...I get it..it's dangerous...how much does it cost?"21:02
BlackRabbit$100US21:02
BlackRabbit"I'll take it."21:02
BlackRabbitthat market is being blocked. every time someone tries to liberate that market,  a large OEM...21:03
BlackRabbit1. swoops in...21:03
BlackRabbit2. convinces the originators of the project to "let big $$$ help"21:03
BlackRabbit3. put our press release professing "We are more open than open."21:03
BlackRabbit4. and immediately proceed to lock-down the platform21:03
BlackRabbitand when people say, "Why did you take that perfectly open OS and lock it down?"21:04
BlackRabbitthe OEM's say...21:04
BlackRabbit"We did it for the good of the  market. Viruses."21:04
specialyes. It's a balance.21:04
BlackRabbitno..i a disagree.21:04
BlackRabbitif they were really concerned, they would continue with Android, Tizen, etc. whatever...21:04
BlackRabbitand let the other FOSS project alone.21:04
BlackRabbitbut they won't do that.21:05
BlackRabbitI am certain that if I were to create a Linux distro for phones, and convince one of those Chinese manufacturers to supply me with devices...21:05
BlackRabbitand start pushing them out...21:05
BlackRabbitI would get a call from a major OEM21:05
BlackRabbittrying to convince me to stop21:05
specialheh21:05
BlackRabbitI'm sure of it.21:05
specialare you aware of the jolla/sailfish/nemo situation?21:05
BlackRabbityes, I read a bit about sailfish. I asked the same questions on Sailfish21:06
BlackRabbitsame thing..."Download the SDK! Download the SDK!"21:06
BlackRabbit"You can hack it if you want!!!"21:06
specialThere's no conspiracy to keep things closed, at least.21:06
BlackRabbithmm...really?21:06
BlackRabbitmy B.S. detectors tend to be a little sharper than most (if I may be immodest021:07
specialNemo is purely open, Jolla contributes to it because Sailfish is built in part on it21:07
BlackRabbitwhen I read the blurb on Sailfish website, my B.S. detectors started going off21:07
BlackRabbitwell, sure they are open.21:07
BlackRabbitthat doesn't change anything really.21:07
specialanything that you might consider "closed" would be part of sailfish, not nemo21:07
BlackRabbitwhat matters is the end result.21:07
BlackRabbitwhat I think would really be interesting, is to keep all of these "open" mobile OS's21:08
BlackRabbitthey are great. I get that.21:08
BlackRabbitbut then, make a mobile OS, and say...21:08
BlackRabbit"This OS will be different."21:08
BlackRabbit"It will be different because we will impose a huge restriction on being able to use the trademark."21:09
BlackRabbit"The restriction is: any OEM that uses our OS must not be allowed to do anything to close it. Period."21:09
BlackRabbitmaybe they have a rule that says that anything that can be done normally on desktop can be done on the smartphone.21:09
specialit's a complicated world where business and consumers meet platforms and especially OSS21:10
BlackRabbitwell sure...the business are winning right now.21:10
specialso the point I was making with nemo and sailfish:21:10
specialat the very least, nemo is the base of sailfish, and nemo is open21:10
BlackRabbiti'm surprised, frankly, that we have come this far, and the OEM's have been smarter than the tech types who write the (free) software.21:11
Merbot`phaeron lbt sage SR#318 waiting for review at https://build.merproject.org//request/show/31821:11
specialthere are a lot of us smart tech types who write free software working on sailfish ;)21:11
BlackRabbitsoftware that is essentially sold by OEM's.21:11
BlackRabbitand what do you get for it? not much.21:11
BlackRabbitit's backwards. the less smart people use the smart people to write software21:12
BlackRabbitfor free21:12
BlackRabbitso that they can then lock down that software21:12
specialthe other distinction21:12
w00tSage: getting ready for release? :p21:12
BlackRabbitsell it to end-users who have vague understanding of what is going on21:12
BlackRabbitrepeat21:12
specialtizen and android are both backed by huge corporations, they're the closed ones pretending to be open21:13
BlackRabbitthere is no guarantee that nemo will not suffer the same fate21:13
specialthere is a guarantee that nemo won't21:13
specialif it's closed in any way, it's not nemo anymore21:14
specialthere is no guarantee that something built on nemo - like sailfish - won't21:14
BlackRabbiti misunderstand21:14
BlackRabbitsailfish will be open or closed?21:14
specialthey're hard words to define. I'd just refer you to https://sailfishos.org/ and ask you to wait and see21:15
BlackRabbitlol21:15
BlackRabbiti've never been the type to "wait and see"21:15
BlackRabbit since life is finite, I have to use something more effective, like B.S. detectors21:16
specialI suppose what I'm saying is that sailfish has more potential to be what you want21:16
BlackRabbitanyhow, i already read that21:16
BlackRabbitas i said, it set off my B.S. detectors immediately21:16
specialbecause it's built on (not forked from; built on) something open, because it's from a small company and a new player, and because it's a small company of OSS hackers21:16
BlackRabbitand Nemo can be whatever, but end the end, the device is locked.21:17
* w00t really doesn't see how this discussion is relevant here21:17
BlackRabbiti read about sailfish21:17
BlackRabbitthey are playing the same game as Tizen is playing21:17
Sagew00t: yes :)21:17
Sagew00t: though it is slow and painfull to get done ;)21:18
w00tSage: probably a good time given qtcontacts-sqlite wll probably land soon..21:18
w00t:P21:18
BlackRabbitthe discussion is relevant because Nemo has people thinking that it will change the landscape of "open" ness21:18
BlackRabbithave to leave and come back..brbr21:18
Sagew00t: there is bunch of packages that fail on promotion21:18
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* special is done with that conversation21:18
w00tSage: hrmm21:18
w00twhy?21:18
Sageinvalid changelog or version or so21:19
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w00teh..21:19
w00taren't they all fixed now?21:19
w00twe introduced checks for it in devel, how'd they break?21:20
BlackRabbityou guys realize that there are a lot of developers who a frustrated because their customers cannot install true native apps on the mobile devices21:20
Sagenemo-qml-plugin-utilities-qt5, nemo-qml-plugin-configuration-qt5, timed, timed-qt5, nemo-qml-plugin-accounts, eventfeed-qt521:20
BlackRabbitthose same developers think that Nemo will liberate this situation21:20
w00tBlackRabbit: really, this discussion is not relevant here - please take it somewhere else21:20
Sagew00t: need to verify those really after I get the big bunch done21:20
BlackRabbitwoot...are you the owner of this IRC channlel?21:20
* Sage gives w00t owner hat ;)21:21
BlackRabbitBlackRabbit knocks owner hat off woots head21:21
w00tSage: i'll start to take a look through those21:22
BlackRabbitin a nutshell, I am saying that you guys with Nemo could help a lot of people21:22
BlackRabbitwho currently think that Nemo is the "savior" of this situation21:22
BlackRabbitI think it is a good thing to do21:22
BlackRabbitit will save a lot of people a lot of time, setting their expectations.21:22
w00tSage: at least utilities has an ok changelog and version..21:23
Sagerozhkov: btw, are all the deps for the browser now in so you could push that to nemo?21:23
w00t..21:23
BlackRabbitI can show you posts on line were developers think that Nemo is a no-non-sense platform that is truly just like Linux being on a smartphone21:23
BlackRabbitif that is not the case, the Nemo needs to make that clear on its web site.21:23
* w00t gets a bad feeling21:23
BlackRabbitthey should at least21:23
Sagew00t: no it doesn't21:24
SageVersion:    0.0.2+master.1.g50346d621:24
Sagevs 0.0.2 in .chnages21:24
w00tSage: smells like a tar_git bug21:24
Sagephaeron: would be nice if tar_git would fail on that kind of things instead of adding that +master thing21:24
Sagew00t: :nod:21:25
w00tbecause the non-qt5 package is built from the same branch/tags, and is correct21:25
w00tmissing the changelog entry for 0.0.3 too..21:25
BlackRabbitanyhow.21:25
w00thttps://build.merproject.org/package/view_file?file=_service%3Atar_git%3Anemo-qml-plugin-utilities.changes&package=nemo-qml-plugin-utilities&project=nemo%3Adevel%3Amw&rev=30d0f0ffc9710dfc11335a24845ff76f21:25
w00tvs:21:25
w00thttps://build.merproject.org/package/view_file?file=_service%3Atar_git%3Anemo-qml-plugin-utilities-qt5.changes&package=nemo-qml-plugin-utilities-qt5&project=nemo%3Adevel%3Amw&rev=1ebea1a1f52cf24ffebad8659c199ebb21:25
BlackRabbitI will spread the word (truth) about Nemo21:25
BlackRabbitI will inform everyone who things that Nemo is Linux-on-mobile that it is not that.21:25
BlackRabbitsince that is what some people think right now.21:26
BlackRabbitI wanted to come here just to be clear. it's clear now.21:26
BlackRabbitthanx.21:26
phaeronwas it generated after or before we enabled the check21:26
w00tphaeron: tag dated may 121:26
phaeronso before .. ?21:26
w00tI don't remember :D21:27
w00tI guess it might be21:27
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w00tbut see what I said above: the non-qt5 package is correct, but they're the same webhook source21:27
w00tisn't that a bit funky?21:27
phaeronprobably .. some tag didn't fire ?21:28
w00ti'll trigger a build and see21:30
w00thm21:30
w00tshas are different on the two hooks o.O21:30
w00tI guess that'd do it21:31
w00tphaeron: should I update last revision + trigger?21:31
phaeronyou can do that21:31
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Merbot`phaeron lbt sage SR#318 Rejected promotion request23:07
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