Sunday, 2014-11-23

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ryukafalzM4rtinK: Noooo more component sets why D:00:53
* ryukafalz looks at message timestamps00:53
ryukafalzwelp00:53
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M4rtinKryukafalz: everybody loves doing half baked component sets! :D01:08
ryukafalz:(01:08
ryukafalzI mean admittedly it does look rather nice01:08
M4rtinKactually my universal components can be seen as yet another component set :)01:08
ryukafalzheheh, true :P01:09
M4rtinKdepends :)01:09
ryukafalzbut that's there for cross-platform compatibility, so I'll allow it :P01:09
M4rtinKif the pictures are mockups or working application screenshots :)01:09
M4rtinKbut I'm afraid nr. 1 is more probable :)01:10
ryukafalzI mean, the applications are blank windows so it may well be "working" ;)01:10
M4rtinKhh01:12
ryukafalzI wish at least Ubuntu would just use QQC01:13
ryukafalzsince it's open source anyway01:13
ryukafalzwell, now that I think about it, their UI is a bit different so that might not work either01:14
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M4rtinKbut still yet another barrier for multi-platform development01:29
M4rtinKits like they just did not want people to develop for their platform :)01:29
M4rtinKBTW, Ubuntu Touch is a huge trainwreck  in itself from what I've heard01:30
M4rtinKthey recently even forked Trojita01:30
M4rtinKreportedly the development is going somewhere on in private without community involvement01:30
M4rtinK& all those NIH components01:31
M4rtinKno wonder they still don't have any real devices running it01:31
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ryukafalzM4rtinK: I mean, I'm kind of divided on that one... because they do private development, but then so does Jolla in some respects01:36
ryukafalzand the Ubuntu Touch code does end up open source01:36
ryukafalzbut Jolla contributes more upstream01:37
* ryukafalz shrugs01:37
M4rtinKwell yeah01:52
M4rtinKbut I'm more on Jollas side on this one01:52
M4rtinKsure, it is stupid they don't open source more components01:53
M4rtinKespecially the ones they have authored themselves so there can't be an "third party code" excuses01:53
M4rtinKbut at least most o the Jolla core & middle ware development is going on in the open01:54
ryukafalzI just wish there were more of a push for interoperability between Silica/Ubuntu/Plasma/etc.01:54
M4rtinKand they contribute upstream and don't push their own NIH everywhere01:54
ryukafalzyeah01:54
ryukafalzI need to make sure I make it to the next collaboration meeting though01:55
M4rtinKthe problem with Canonical is01:55
ryukafalzsince the topic of open sourcing sailfish apps is being specifically brought up there01:55
M4rtinKthat even before the latest round of "lets do everything ourselves"01:55
M4rtinKthey have been using heavily patched versions of everything01:55
M4rtinKso even when you have the code from Canonical01:56
M4rtinKyou might not be able to use it due to not working at all without patching half of your system libs01:56
M4rtinKAFAIK all the attempts to run Unity outside of Ubuntu ended on this01:56
M4rtinKsimilar thing with Launchpad01:57
ryukafalzyeah, that's the irritating thing about it01:57
M4rtinKthere is next to none deployment docs01:57
M4rtinKand the icons are not free01:57
M4rtinKso yes, it is open01:57
M4rtinKbut no provisions to be actually useful outside of the Ubuntu land :)01:57
ryukafalzfair enough :P01:57
M4rtinKalso looking forward to the meeting01:58
ryukafalzI need to make sure I'm actually free then01:58
ryukafalzand set reminders because I keep missing those01:58
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M4rtinKBTW, I might have kinda started the latest round of "make it open source already": https://together.jolla.com/question/63588/jolla-tablet-fully-open-source-os/01:58
M4rtinKbasically the way I see it01:59
M4rtinKtheir current marketing about the tablet is very very misleading in regards of openness if they want to keep the status quo01:59
ryukafalzOh haha I saw that earlier, didn't realize it was you :P02:00
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M4rtinKand there have not been *any* concrete statements about changing the current state - so there you have it :)02:00
M4rtinKI posted this one followed by about 12 other questions :)02:01
M4rtinKmostly based on past (bad) experience with different product launches, to hopefully clarify things before it is too late :)02:01
ryukafalzyeah, I don't imagine it will be open sourced02:02
ryukafalzbut I'm hoping some of the apps will be at least02:02
ryukafalzIM client specifically02:02
ryukafalzthe backend is already open02:02
M4rtinKlisting: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1448146&postcount=41502:02
ryukafalzheheh02:03
ryukafalzI need to participate on both TMO and TJC more02:03
M4rtinKryukafalz: sure, while I still don't agree with their Open Source policy, this is understandable02:03
M4rtinKbut they need to change their marketing then02:03
M4rtinKbecause there are lying02:03
* ryukafalz agrees02:03
M4rtinK"change whatever you like, whenever you like" just does not hold if most of the UI is closed02:04
Morpog_PCM4rtinK, put nemo on it, tada02:04
Morpog_PCor are you arguing with googles AOSP that all google apps are closed?02:05
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M4rtinKI'm arguing that marketing about the Jolla tablet is misleading or even outright false02:06
M4rtinKbasically:02:07
M4rtinK    Unique and independent Sailfish OS02:07
M4rtinK    Jolla Tablet’s Sailfish operating system will be unlike anything you’ve tried before. Once you try it, you’ll never want to go back. Independent and open source, change whatever you like, whenever you like.02:07
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M4rtinKThe last sentence is pretty much false at the moment.02:07
Morpog_PCsounds all correct to me02:07
Morpog_PCit's not, you are just making the wrong assumtion out of it02:07
M4rtinKwell, it is not open source02:07
M4rtinKand because of that you can't "change whatever you like"02:08
M4rtinKthat's how I see it02:08
Morpog_PCsure you can, just replace the closed stuff02:08
Morpog_PCthats how I see it02:09
M4rtinKwell, that is a rather bold interpretation02:09
* ryukafalz has some thoughts on this but is slightly busy at the moment02:09
Morpog_PCI could say yours is pretty narrow02:10
Morpog_PCWe both are right02:10
M4rtinKwith this interpretation even it iPad is "Independent and open source" and you can "change whatever you like, whenever you like"02:10
Morpog_PCanyways, 3am here, I'm going to bed02:10
Morpog_PCNo you can't, it's locked down02:11
M4rtinKbecause there are some bits based on BSD in it a you just need to replace the whole OS :)02:11
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M4rtinKno problem, just find backdoor or use a tunneling microscope to change the silicon on the chip :P02:11
ryukafalzOkay, personally I think it's a bit disingenuous to advertise it as open source when a large portion of it (UI and default apps) is closed source02:12
ryukafalz'night02:12
M4rtinKsimple right ? :)02:12
M4rtinKI just don't like people marketing something as open source when it clearly isn't02:12
ryukafalzI'd agree with you there02:13
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ryukafalzat the same time I currently like Sailfish over Android - even though Sailfish is more closed, Jolla seems to be moving in the direction of opening more02:14
ryukafalzas opposed to Google who is gradually locking down Android02:14
bencohmeh, they're both "closed"02:16
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ryukafalzbencoh: Well, Android is largely open source - you have a fully functional device with just AOSP for example02:17
bencohwhat about closed-source ril ?02:18
bencohnot sure everyone would call a no-telephony device "fully functional"02:18
bencohreplicant has RE-ed most of samsung-ril and it works for some devices, but that's it, basically02:19
ryukafalzhmm02:19
ryukafalzI'm not too familiar with that bit tbh02:20
ryukafalzis that vendor-specific?02:20
bencohand you might be able to do something with qualcomm-based devices thanks to ofono/qmi, but at the moment there is nothing02:20
bencohit is02:20
bencoheven jolla uses a proprietary ril (that they got from qualcomm iirc)02:21
M4rtinKisn't Google basically letting more and more of the AOSP apps to rot ?02:22
bencohdunno02:22
ryukafalzM4rtinK: Basically, yes02:22
M4rtinKand replacing them by closed gapps versions02:22
ryukafalzbencoh: Where's the line drawn between what ofono handles and what the proprietary RIL handles?02:22
M4rtinKalso completely behind-closed-doors development02:23
jonwilThe whole "Google Play Services" thing should explain Google's view on openness02:23
M4rtinKcount to that the overall Android architecture nightmare02:23
M4rtinKso I also like Sailfish OS more than Android :)02:23
bencohryukafalz: http://events.linuxfoundation.org/sites/events/files/slides/elc_telephony_piirainen_0.pdf02:24
bencohhttps://github.com/rilmodem/ofono for source02:24
ryukafalzbencoh: Ooh, thank you02:24
jonwilThat said, "Google Play Services" exists because Google didn't like the way carriers and OEMs were releasing hardware and then holding back software updates in order to push people to buy the latest hardware.02:24
ryukafalzRelevant re: Android - http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/02:25
M4rtinKryukafalz: was about to link to that one :)02:25
ryukafalz;)02:25
M4rtinKthat's probably the best article on that02:25
M4rtinKso basically everyone is evil! :D02:25
bencohexactly02:26
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bencohwell, dunno about "evil", but at least "closed" :)02:26
ryukafalzwell, closed at different levels02:27
bencohseveral levels :]02:27
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ryukafalzSailfish: UI, apps; Android: Google APIs, Google apps; all: radio interface02:27
ryukafalzgross oversimplification but yeah02:28
bencohand you forgot the shared cpu/modem bus/dma02:28
ryukafalzwell that's more hardware related02:29
bencohyeah, but that still makes your whole plateform "closed" ... and there is no way around02:29
ryukafalzbut yes the fact that the baseband has access to $everything is very concerning02:29
bencoheven if they released all of the code running on main cpu02:29
ryukafalzneo900 \o/02:29
bencohyeah :)02:29
ryukafalzif only it had more up to date hardware though02:30
ryukafalzstill, I can't blame them with their resources02:30
ryukafalzalso powervr blah02:30
jonwilNeo900 is as close to "open" as its possible to get in the mobile space02:31
bencohwell ... compare their resources to recent jolla indiegogo campaign, and ... meh02:31
bencohyou cant force people into freeing themselves02:31
jonwilAnd thanks to https://github.com/jumoog/GFX_Linux_DDK/ its possible PowerVR wont be a blob issue for much longer02:31
ryukafalzjonwil: er, no02:33
ryukafalzthis was posted above but http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html02:33
bencohsee 7 hours ago ^^02:34
ryukafalzleaked code is baaaad02:34
ryukafalzbencoh: I'll admit to having bought a Jolla Tablet but not a Neo900. The biggest difference being one I can reasonably afford, heh.02:36
ryukafalztbh I would be perfectly happy with a mobile internet connection and a SIP server somewhere02:39
ryukafalzwith my main device not even having a cell radio02:39
* ryukafalz wishes sfos had a/v support - Telepathy already supports it02:41
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M4rtinKwell, the Jolla tablet has a shipping date02:49
M4rtinKNeo 900 not yet AFAIK02:50
ryukafalzalso true02:50
M4rtinKBTW, I really wonder if they can make it02:50
ryukafalzNeo900 you mean?02:50
M4rtinKpeople who are less sensitive about privacy might opt for TOHKBDv2 instead02:51
M4rtinKyeah02:51
M4rtinKI would expect many would go for it for the keyboard alone :)02:51
M4rtinKeven I still know about a couple of hardcore N900 users02:52
M4rtinKwith the number two reasons for sticking with it being the "normal" Linux distro & hardware keyboard02:52
ryukafalzI would totally use an N900 now if the software were still maintained02:52
M4rtinKBTW, I still also use my N900 from time to time :)02:53
ryukafalzand if it had open drivers02:53
M4rtinKwell, it is :)02:53
M4rtinKthe CSSU guys are pretty active02:53
ryukafalzCSSU...02:53
ryukafalzoh dang what02:53
M4rtinKhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU02:53
M4rtinKfixing stuff left and right02:54
M4rtinKeven got thumb working02:54
ryukafalzso like, you have an up to date copy of openssl and such?02:54
ryukafalz/other security libs02:54
M4rtinKand currently working for example on Location and PulseAudio closed parts RE02:54
M4rtinKyep :)02:54
M4rtinKor IIRc the copy in Maemo is too old to be affected :)02:55
ryukafalzehhhh I would prefer up to date copies :P02:55
ryukafalzI'm curious how much of maemo 5 is closed at this point02:55
M4rtinKbut  I think they fixed the bash vulnerability or some of the other recent ones02:55
M4rtinKthere is a table somewhere02:56
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ryukafalzhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages02:56
ryukafalzit looks like a bunch of it is GPL-licensed but the source code is nowhere to be found?02:57
ryukafalzmost of the red ones are like that, the situation is better than I expected02:58
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M4rtinKmost recently modified October 201402:59
M4rtinKthey are working on it :)02:59
ryukafalzwonder how far you'd get pestering nokia :P02:59
ryukafalzI might have to go out and buy an N900 now heh02:59
M4rtinKthat train has left long ago :)03:00
M4rtinKthey just wont release anything more03:00
ryukafalz=/03:00
ryukafalzholy crap N900s are expensive still03:00
M4rtinKactually the Maemo community is on its own since ~201303:00
M4rtinKall the services are already community hosted03:01
ryukafalzI figured as much, but aren't they legally obligated to provide the source for GPL components?03:01
ryukafalzactually not if they're the sole copyright holder...03:01
M4rtinKeven then03:01
M4rtinKas long as they shipped at lest one binary to someone03:01
M4rtinKthe someone can still require the source03:02
ryukafalzI don't believe that's the case03:02
M4rtinKoh right03:02
M4rtinKI know what you mean03:02
ryukafalzsoftware licenses don't apply to the copyright holder03:02
M4rtinKthat could be it03:02
M4rtinKmight be still arguable though, if they were advertising it as GPL or something03:03
M4rtinKbut still03:03
M4rtinKno use in asking Nokia anymore03:03
ryukafalzyeah =/03:03
M4rtinKmost of the people who worked on Maemo are not there anymore03:03
ryukafalzaren't some at Jolla? :P03:03
ryukafalzthey wouldn't likely have the code ofc but still haha03:04
M4rtinKmany are03:04
M4rtinKBTW, Mer is actually older than the N90003:04
M4rtinKand Stskeeps has been working on it even then :)03:04
M4rtinKand I've been helping with testing in on my old SmartQ 7 tablet :D03:05
M4rtinKthen Maemo 5 & N900 came, priorities shifted and Mer went to the sideline03:05
ryukafalzoh dang, old umpc03:05
ryukafalzI remember that actually03:05
M4rtinKonly to be resurrected again once MeeGo bombed03:06
ryukafalzMer was an alternative OS type thing, in its current state it was something of a rebirth03:06
M4rtinKyeah, it was the best one could get at that time03:06
M4rtinKbut it had horrible power management03:06
M4rtinKit was usable as a reader or even emergency web browser03:07
M4rtinKbut you had to wait about a minute for it to turn on03:07
ryukafalzheh03:07
ryukafalzI never had an N900, but I still enjoy my N810 sometimes03:07
M4rtinKit could run for about 8 hour though03:07
M4rtinKbut the suspend never worked correctly - it woke up after a few hour and either continued running or shut down03:08
M4rtinKI think I tracked it down to some protection against memory corruption at low power or something03:08
M4rtinKnot much to do about that03:08
M4rtinKso it was quite usable once it run03:09
bencohnemo was never really "optimized" for n90003:09
M4rtinKbut not really usable on moments notice, which kinda killed the usability :)03:09
bencohsome versions of it kinda worked03:09
M4rtinK(now I was talking about the Q7, not the N900 BTW)03:09
bencoh(oh)03:09
M4rtinKbut Nemo on N900 indeed wasn't also the best usually03:10
M4rtinKon the other hand it still used to work better than current Nemo :)03:10
M4rtinK(unless something changed since I tried it on my N950 about 2-3 months ago)03:11
ryukafalzWell the Nemo UI is being heavily reworked (the new one being Glacier)03:11
bencohcurrent nemo doesnt run on n90003:11
ryukafalzAFAIK you should still be able to run the old one03:11
ryukafalzbencoh: should work on N950 though :P03:12
bencohno proper wayland support - someone hacked into it but never released anything03:12
ryukafalzI mean, can't you run Nemo with X still?03:12
* ryukafalz hasn't been keeping up03:12
bencohnope03:12
ryukafalzahh, okay03:12
bencohthey dropped support03:12
ryukafalzwhen did that happen?03:13
bencohand available images/binaries for n900 are borked03:13
M4rtinKanyway, good night you all! :)03:13
bencoh1.5years ago iirc03:13
ryukafalz'night!03:13
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ryukafalzah, I see, with the switch to qt503:13
bencohexactly03:15
bencohit wouldnt run anyway .... 50mo for mcompositor is faaar too much for poor n900 to handle03:16
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faenilo/13:47
locusfyo13:48
Stskeepsmoo faenil13:56
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tbrmooooo14:04
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faenilhow's your sunday people :14:12
faenil:)14:12
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locusfall good14:17
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filippzhi guys - looking for next thing to fix - who has power over pulseaudio-settings-n950-n9?14:24
Stskeepsprobably jusa and co14:24
filippzmy PR is sitting there for a while :)14:25
filippzjusa_: are you the one who can comment/accept this: https://github.com/nemomobile/pulseaudio-settings-n950-n9?14:27
filippzlocusf: does you latest nemo image have OOMScoreAdjust for user services that hedayat was mentioning?14:29
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locusffilippz: yes14:29
filippzlocusf: great, I'll use that one then14:30
filippzlocusf: did you publish ks for it somewhere?14:33
locusffilippz: yes14:33
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locusfnemo-armv7hl-n950-rnd-10282015.ks14:34
locusfhttps://img.merproject.org/images//web/locusf/19-20141028-164708/nemo-armv7hl-n950-rnd-10282015.ks14:34
filippzlocusf: thanks14:34
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locusfnp :)14:39
filippzlocusf: I'm thinking of reverting kernel to landscape and including glesplash - but I'm sure sailfishos porters will hate that14:41
filippzthey'll need fbset-n9.service back into ks14:41
locusfhmm ok14:41
locusfthats a fine idea, I can then generate a new release with newest glacier fixes14:42
filippzyup - I'll try to catch hedayat these days about that idea - IIRC he also did some OOMScoreAdjust fixes to all user services14:44
filippzalso that simple sound fix would be nice, and I wonder how's ofono doing these days with N914:45
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locusfhedayat knows someething about that14:53
locusfthe problems lie within the dbus permissions system14:53
locusffor ofono that ia14:54
locusfis14:54
filippzOK, maybe he has sometning we can put into ks for now - an image with working telephony would be a nice step forward :)14:56
locusfyeah :)14:56
locusffor ril implementations as well14:57
Morpog_PCare you guys pushing kernel changes back to nemo? latest stuff there is from january15:24
* Morpog_PC is just wondering15:24
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filippzMorpog_PC: nope - fixes in my repo contain nasty hacks needed for old binary blobs we use (bme, libomap3camd...) - I'm not sure what should be done with those15:31
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Morpog_PCfilippz, well, It's not like this will be upstreamed at all or?15:32
filippzMorpog_PC: that will newer go to linux kernel - even Nokia couldn't make that happen. At some point (time permitting) we could push changes to nemomobile15:34
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Morpog_PCthats waht i meant15:34
locusfI wonder who is in charge of overseeing pull requests to n9 kernel15:36
filippzlocusf: kjokinie - but more than year back I was struggling with git and kernel - and decided to fix it in my repo first and push it later because it was taking too long otherwise15:39
locusffilippz: ok15:41
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filippzI think back then the whole idea was to go upsteram, but now IMHO that ship has sailed. If we look at that in this way, then all commits I made could go into main repo without too much problems15:44
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locusffilippz: well what prevents you from making the pr then :) ? Go for it15:45
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filippzlocusf: time :)15:47
locusffilippz: understandable :)15:48
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filippzlocusf: btw I just noticed erratic behavior of glacier when swiping away from open app (swiping away from lockscreen works OK) - maybe my latest PR's broke something15:50
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locusffilippz: erratic, how come?15:55
filippzlocusf: when I'm swiping down it's jumping up/down by maybe some 50-100 rows - seems that fixes to ScreenGestureArea.qml are not 100 reliable (mapToItem)15:56
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filippzI'm looking at that right now15:57
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locusfok thanks15:59
filippzlocusf: seems that mapToItem varies it's "correction" - maybe it's thinking that w/h are swapped and trying to convert 854 -> 480 and vice versa16:01
filippzmaybe I need to swap x/y in some orientations... I'll try that...16:02
locusffilippz: ok16:02
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filippztried, and.. that would be too easy :(16:03
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filippzhm, if x,y are offset on parent, then mapToItem should offset it by the same x,y always... well I have to go for now ...16:04
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locusfok16:07
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