Tuesday, 2015-02-17

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locusfmorning05:27
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locusfhttps://github.com/M4rtinK/universal-components05:44
locusflets start sending pr's that way for glacier05:44
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spiiroinfyi/review appreciated: https://github.com/nemomobile/mce/pull/25009:07
spiiroin^ allows resetting mce settings to defaults without restarting the service09:07
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tbrlocusf: did you make a new kernel or image?09:29
locusftbr: not yet, at work right now09:29
tbrkk09:29
locusftbr: I forgot to add minnowboard config yesterrday + mer warnings09:29
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tbrbut 3.18 should work pretty well on the max09:30
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locusfhope so09:40
locusftbr: what do you thing about the EFI_STUB config, should I add thatas well?09:40
dr_gogeta86morning guys09:41
tbrlocusf: no idea if that's necessary. I haven't done much on UEFI either09:43
locusftbr: ok09:45
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dr_gogeta86locusf, patch accepted and rejected for kbuild09:53
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dr_gogeta86https://github.com/nemomobile-packages/kbuild/pull/109:54
locusfdr_gogeta86: yeah I saw, good job09:59
dr_gogeta86next thing ?09:59
dr_gogeta86for example09:59
dr_gogeta86we lack rotation09:59
locusfI'm building a image for M4rtinK to do09:59
locusfif we do rotation then Jolla might use that as well for Sailfish10:00
dr_gogeta86any way to test audio10:00
dr_gogeta86nfg-client10:00
locusfif you think your confident enough to test rotation then please do :)10:00
dr_gogeta86seems play but i don't hear any10:00
locusfokay10:00
locusfwell thats another issue we have to tackle10:00
dr_gogeta86i think audio10:01
dr_gogeta86and keyboad input10:01
dr_gogeta86*keyboard10:01
dr_gogeta86need to be fixed first10:01
faenilmorning people o/10:01
dr_gogeta86hi faenil10:01
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locusffaenil: I put things in motion with M4rtinK about the universal components, he'll be getting a VM this evening to test glacier on10:12
dr_gogeta86locusf mine build is hosted on a public server10:12
dr_gogeta86if you want10:12
locusfdr_gogeta86: oh great, saves me the upload, is it recent?10:13
dr_gogeta86yesterday evening10:13
dr_gogeta86with mine repo added10:13
faenillocusf: cool, to have glacier modrana?10:13
dr_gogeta86hahaha10:13
locusfdr_gogeta86: excellent, do you have the url?10:13
dr_gogeta86if you want10:13
dr_gogeta86I can refresh10:13
dr_gogeta86i got full mer sdk there10:13
locusffaenil: well that and generally the UC is a way we could use our nemo apps in sailfish too10:14
locusfdr_gogeta86: I guess I just need the Nemo VM right now10:14
dr_gogeta86ok10:14
dr_gogeta86time to get the urs10:14
dr_gogeta86time to get the urls10:14
faenillocusf: you mean use those components to do all glacier apps?10:14
dr_gogeta86faenil, i begin to hate telecomitalia and italian MIXes10:17
faenilhehe10:34
locusffaenil: well I don't know yet10:39
faenilthat's something nice, but at first sight I'd say it wouldn't work, even Martin knows that universal components means compromising10:39
locusffaenil: well lets discuss in the evening, I have invited him to a meeting about it today10:40
faenilsur10:40
faenilsure10:40
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dr_gogeta86locusf, two minute and you got image11:44
locusfdr_gogeta86: okay thanks11:44
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locusftbr: you may want to try out this package for the kernel: https://build.merproject.org/package/binary/home:locusf:x86-minnowboard-adaptation/kernel-adaptation-pc?arch=x86_64&filename=kernel-adaptation-pc-3.18.6-1.6.1.x86_64.rpm&repository=Core_x86_6413:30
tbrby that you mean this: http://repo.merproject.org/obs/home:/locusf:/x86-minnowboard-adaptation/Core_x86_64/x86_64/kernel-adaptation-pc-3.18.6-1.6.1.x86_64.rpm13:32
locusftbr: yes13:32
locusfif you extract that rpm you get the kernel13:32
* tbr gets it and proceeds to slipstream it into the existing SD-card13:32
tbryup13:32
locusfoh yeah the modules might not work though13:32
locusfoh well13:32
tbrif modules are in the RPM I'll fix them too. btdt13:33
locusfok13:33
tbrif not we'll at least see if it boots now13:33
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tbrhrm, still Error loading \vmlinuz-3.18.6-1.6.1: Unsupported13:47
locusfdamn13:48
locusfwell I forgot the EFI_STUB13:48
tbryes, saw that13:48
locusfit is now 64bits13:48
locusfisn't it?13:49
tbryes, the config says so13:49
tbrthe tizen kernel has stub set13:49
locusfok13:49
tbrif you spin one with that changed I can try it right away13:50
locusfhttps://build.merproject.org/package/live_build_log/home:locusf:x86-minnowboard-adaptation/kernel-adaptation-pc/Core_x86_64/x86_64 just watch here13:50
tbryes, that was my intention :)13:51
locusfok :)13:51
* tbr waits for publisher to do its job13:52
locusfargh error13:52
tbrah, STUB has dependencies :)13:52
locusfok rebuilding, brb13:56
tbrwatching it :)13:59
tbrding!14:04
* tbr waits for publisher to pick them up14:05
faenil:D14:05
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tbrok, no error message this time. time to wire things up with a display14:18
faenilyay14:19
locusfnice14:22
dr_gogeta86http://www.nrg-lab.com/nemovm-20150217.img.tar.bz214:29
dr_gogeta86bring it while hot14:29
locusfexcellent, thanks dr_gogeta86 :)14:30
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locusfCPU: 0 PID: 1 Comm: swapper/0 Not tainted 3.18.6-1.8.1 #114:32
locusfgetting this in my uefi14:33
locusf+ stack trace14:33
* tbr will have a video uploaded in a few minutes14:33
tbrof Nemomobile booting on the minnowmax to … *drumroll*14:33
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locusfwoot it worked out of the box ?14:34
tbrlet me just do some ffmpeg conversion real quick TM14:35
vgrade\o/14:38
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tbrsigh 2fps makes this take a while. probably 10min or so14:43
locusfdr_gogeta86: I get an error opening the nemovm.img14:52
locusfinvalid disk image or something14:52
locusfvirtualbox 4.3x14:52
dr_gogeta86did you convert it to vdi14:52
dr_gogeta86?14:52
locusfah no14:52
tbrsoon™14:53
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locusflike a charm14:54
locusfdr_gogeta86: as you said, it works, nice job!14:54
dr_gogeta86remember to mcetool -g disabled14:58
dr_gogeta86mcetool -u disabled14:58
dr_gogeta86otherwise you cant go out from lockscreen14:58
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dr_gogeta86pulsaudio sink list see virtualized sound card14:59
locusfhow do I get out of the lockscreen, doubleclick?15:02
dr_gogeta86no15:02
dr_gogeta86alt f215:02
dr_gogeta86user nemo15:02
dr_gogeta86pass nemo15:02
dr_gogeta86commands15:02
dr_gogeta86alt f115:03
dr_gogeta86and swipe from left border15:03
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locusfok15:05
tbrlocusf: http://images.devaamo.fi/nemo/minnowmax/firstboot.html15:05
tbrvideo is fullhd (from a jolla) so you might see more blur if you go to fullscreen ;)15:06
locusfI'm full cheer here \o/15:07
locusfI'm amazed it booted to graphics15:07
* tbr takes to twatter15:08
locusfyeah thats amazing15:08
faenil\o/15:08
locusfsame issue as with raspi2 which boots graphics sideways15:09
locusfbut no matter it bleeding worked!!!!!15:09
bencohoh15:10
bencohneat15:10
bencohdunno what to do with it though :D15:10
bencoh(I mean, it does seem more interesting on a phone)15:10
Stskeepsgood work guys15:10
locusfwell its a devboard15:10
Stskeepsmesa drivers?15:10
locusfyeah dri965 or something15:11
Stskeepsgood15:11
vgradehttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Sailfish/Exopc has some notes on rotations, old but may work15:11
* tbr puts it on g+15:12
dr_gogeta86tbr can you clone this on nemo images http://www.nrg-lab.com/nemovm-20150217.img.tar.bz215:12
tbrdr_gogeta86: where to?15:13
locusfimages.devaamo I guess15:13
tbryes, but what directory?15:13
dr_gogeta86nemo mobile vm15:13
tbris it just a VM?15:13
locusfye15:13
dr_gogeta86tnx15:14
tbrhttp://images.devaamo.fi/nemo/vm/15:14
tbr*ding*15:14
faenil:)15:14
locusftbr: could you please update the minnow image?15:15
tbrlocusf: you mean just jig in the kernel sideways instead of mic2 run? sure15:15
locusfyeaah15:15
locusfhmm I wonder if the modules are a problem now?15:16
tbrI put the modules there, so no15:16
locusfmaybe dd-read the sd-card?15:16
tbrand I'll do so again for the official image15:16
tbrthat's the lazy way. I have a script to access partitions of a full disk image and mount them. just need to find it. :)15:17
locusfah ok :)15:17
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locusftbr: does the EGL mouse work?15:23
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tbrlocusf: no clue, how do I test it?15:24
locusftbr: just plugin a mouse and wiggle it to see the cursor move15:24
locusfah no that requires a evdevmouse plugin15:26
locusfnevermind I guess15:26
tbrI'll try later, currently uncompressing the image15:26
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locusfokay15:26
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dr_gogeta86locusf, any method to play a file from cmd line15:35
dr_gogeta86?15:35
dr_gogeta86gst-launch ?15:35
tbrlocusf or anyone, if you need to do such a thing: "losetup /dev/loop0 foo.img && kpartx -a /dev/loop0" - after that you'll find /dev/mapper/loop0pX mounteable15:35
dr_gogeta86+115:36
dr_gogeta86sometimes also libguestfs is usefull15:36
dr_gogeta86does it for you magicly15:36
tbrok, now to dd the image to see it boots, while it compresses and uploads15:39
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dr_gogeta86https://nemoux00.wordpress.com/ who is he ?15:39
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dr_gogeta86locusf, a pulseaudio master is needed15:51
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locusftbr: ok thanks for the info and milliard thanks for the testing aid :)16:02
locusfdr_gogeta86: ah ok16:02
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tbrhmmm, why does it now show the two penguins and list time it didn't...16:06
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tbralso I can see a cursor blinking on the lockscreen....16:07
tbroh welll16:07
tbrfor a first throw it works16:08
Stskeepstbr:  there's a kernel option for that16:08
* tbr waits for the compression to finish16:08
tbrStskeeps: yeah, just wondering why it didn't happen with the - theoretically identical image - that I used for the video16:08
Stskeepsif it was like c64, moving or touching the computer while it was loading.. :P16:09
tbr:)16:10
tbrhmm, running xz with the -e option takes time. film at 1116:10
dr_gogeta86ever tried pigz16:12
locusfvgrade: and thank you for cracking the kernel case :)16:16
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dr_gogeta86paplay on sailfishos uittuka works16:28
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dr_gogeta86nemovm not ?16:28
dr_gogeta86what wrong ?16:29
dr_gogeta86file are played16:29
dr_gogeta86but seems muted16:29
locusfoh16:30
tbraudio policy, audio routing, alsa or pa settings?16:30
dr_gogeta86pacmd dump | grep set-sink16:31
dr_gogeta86set-sink-volume alsa_output.pci-0000_00_05.0.analog-stereo 0x06416:31
dr_gogeta86set-sink-mute alsa_output.pci-0000_00_05.0.analog-stereo no16:31
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dr_gogeta86done16:32
dr_gogeta86volume too low16:32
dr_gogeta86set-sink-volume alsa_output.pci-0000_00_05.0.analog-stereo 0x482616:32
dr_gogeta86and works like a charm16:32
locusfnice :)16:32
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dr_gogeta86nfg-client works too16:34
tbrhttp://images.devaamo.fi/nemo/minnowmax/nemo-mobile-x86_64-sda.raw.xz16:50
locusftbr: ok nice, thanks16:52
vgradelocusf: np.16:56
* vgrade wonders if it would boot on my uefi tablet16:57
dr_gogeta86i dunno16:57
dr_gogeta86but let me know16:57
tbrvgrade: quite likely, it's not /that/ special a kernel and x86 is good at booting on all sorts of hw16:57
vgradetbr: do you have 32 or 64bit uefi EFI parts16:58
vgrademy tab only does 32 bit16:58
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tbrvgrade: ah, then the original image might work better17:00
dr_gogeta86http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2015/02/17/first-fully-sandboxed-linux-desktop-app/17:00
tbrvgrade: actually, no, that was missing UEFI bits IIRC17:00
locusfyes17:01
tbrvgrade: but it should be easy to slipstream a 32bit kernel17:01
locusfactually no its not easy17:01
vgradetbr: its not the kernel its the bits in the EFI part I think17:01
locusfthe kernel is configured to be 64-bits only, so the i486 build failed17:01
locusfand it didn't have the uefi stubs17:02
* vgrade puts it on the list17:03
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tbralso it would need a 32bit gummiboot or such17:06
locusfhttps://github.com/nemomobile/lipstick/pull/233 <- this is quite interesting17:06
tbras EFI → loader needs to match17:06
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vgradetbr: I think I have the right bits from the android-ia work17:11
tbrthen it's just a kernel rebuild away17:13
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SfietKonstantinWlocusf: this lipstick PR is itneresting yeah17:24
SfietKonstantinWand I don't know if there are much people able to review it17:25
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locusfdamn the minnowmax is expensive18:38
locusfwrt rpi218:39
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locusfwell ok not as bad as pandaboard beagleboard etc18:41
tbrlocusf: also supply situation is still really thin, that also drove the price up18:49
locusftbr: yeah noticed that delivery times are 12-20 weeks in one shop18:50
tbrtigal, yeah18:50
locusfyup18:50
locusfI wonder where M4rtinK is18:51
tbrI knew it was going to be bad, so I took the opportunity and got it through a yocto workshop18:51
locusfthats nice18:51
locusfyocto is the same as obs if for us?18:51
locusfa little bit more too I guess18:52
tbrit's a bit more complex18:53
tbrit's a bit like Mer the project/community18:53
tbropen-embedded is the build-system18:54
tbrpoky is a reference distribution as its output (RPM based)18:54
locusfok18:55
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locusfM4rtinK2: it seems that sleep didn't come this night so lets  talk about your universal components  :)21:01
M4rtinK2locusf: OK :)21:01
M4rtinK2btw, trying the image in virtualbox21:02
locusfgreat :)21:02
M4rtinK2but getting something like a gray screen at the moment21:02
locusfit comes with latest nemo qqcn21:02
M4rtinK2not completely grey, but with some sort of a circular gradient21:03
locusfhttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Wayland_Nemo_VM_Image21:04
locusftake a look at that page21:04
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locusfthe videomode is important21:08
M4rtinK2you mean it could be caused by that opacity glitch :21:09
M4rtinK2?21:09
locusfoh that is fixed long time ago21:09
faenilVBoxManage setextradata "NAME_OF_THE_VM" CustomVideoMode1 "480x854x32"21:10
locusfyes that21:10
faenilM4rtinK2: ^21:10
faenilread on that page ;)21:10
faenilextra bonus if you update the wiki page :D21:11
M4rtinK2oh, now I see it :)21:12
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gogetafaenil, i can't update it21:16
gogetathe wiki21:16
gogetameanwhile I'm doing some kind of moster21:16
faenilmer obs account iirc21:16
gogetais the same21:16
gogetadrbd replicated blocks + redhat cluster + gfs2 + ucarp21:17
M4rtinK2frankly, it is kinda buried there :)21:17
gogetathe worst thing you can mix21:17
M4rtinK2I would advice splitting the "how to make the VM image" instructions from VM image usage instructions21:18
faenilM4rtinK2: sure, that was the 1st wayland image, I wrote that page in Summer 2013! XD21:19
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M4rtinK2I think I remember when it was published :)21:19
M4rtinK2I think I tried it out on my N950 back then21:19
faenil:)21:19
M4rtinK2btw, it boots now and I can see the homescreen21:20
M4rtinK2but it does not seem to get mouse input21:20
locusf\o/21:20
M4rtinK2& no cursor21:20
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locusfits proximity sensor of mce21:20
locusfif you forward ssh port from host guest then you can issue those command I gave you on twitter21:21
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gogetaM4rtinK2, wich version of VirtualBox do you have21:24
gogeta?21:24
M4rtinK2mamanged to do the trick with the port & to ssh in21:24
M4rtinK2but even after issuing the commands21:24
M4rtinK2it is still the same21:25
M4rtinK2gogeta: 4.3.2021:25
locusfdouble click and drag the screen from left edge21:25
locusfto unlock the screen21:26
M4rtinK2no change21:28
locusfmcetool -t disabled21:29
locusfmcetool -k unlocked21:29
M4rtinK2still the same unfortunately21:31
M4rtinK2I even rebooted the VM21:31
M4rtinK2then issued the commands from twitter & the new ones21:31
M4rtinK2I'm on the home screen but clicking/swiping does nothing21:31
locusfhmm21:32
locusfthats a bummer21:33
locusfdo you see the cursor?21:33
locusfdo you have guest additions installed?21:34
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M4rtinK2no cursor21:34
M4rtinK2will check the guest additions21:34
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gogetawich vm did you downloaded ?21:48
M4rtinK2I think I'Ve installed the additions21:48
gogetayou created image by yourself ?21:48
M4rtinK2gogeta: this one: http://t.co/xMdNyNMwRM21:49
gogetaok21:50
M4rtinK2cd I've mounted /dev/cdrom and started the .run script21:50
gogetanooo21:50
gogetaare already in21:50
gogetathe only thing to do is21:51
gogetathe mcetoo -g disabled21:51
gogeta mcetool -u disabled21:51
M4rtinK2I did that21:51
gogetadid you disabled mouse integration21:51
gogeta?21:51
M4rtinK2tried with and without21:52
M4rtinK2same result21:52
M4rtinK2BTW, vboxservice is dead21:53
gogetastrange21:53
M4rtinK2Feb 17 23:48:10 localhost systemd[1]: Starting VBoxService daemon for various aspects of guest control and time sync...21:53
M4rtinK2Feb 17 23:48:10 localhost systemd[1]: Started VBoxService daemon for various aspects of guest control and time sync.21:53
M4rtinK2Feb 17 23:48:11 localhost systemd[1]: vboxservice.service: main process exited, code=exited, status=1/FAILURE21:53
M4rtinK2Feb 17 23:48:11 localhost systemd[1]: Unit vboxservice.service entered failed state.21:53
gogetai'll download for testing21:53
locusfit does work for me, that image21:54
M4rtinK2maybe I need to change some setting of the virtual machine ?21:58
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M4rtinK2well, we can still talk UC in the meantime :)21:59
locusfyeah ok, sorry about those problems :O22:00
M4rtinK2no problem as long as I can get it working eventually :)22:01
faenilhehe22:03
faeniland let's not forget the difficult points22:03
faenilplease write them down22:03
faenilgogeta: can you write something about how to create the VM image? on the wiki22:03
locusfits already tjere22:04
faenilI'll download the image tomorrow and update the usage instructions22:04
faenillocusf: ah ok22:04
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faenilis the ks always the same?22:04
faenildon't think so :D22:05
locusfnoppe I gave gogeta the one I used22:05
gogeta+ my repo22:05
locusfyes22:05
faenilok...22:05
gogetabtw i've asked for merge22:06
faenilwhere?22:06
gogetagithub22:06
faenilah you mean the PRs to packages22:06
faenilyes, I meant the ks22:06
gogetais just locusf one + repo22:06
faenilok but where is locusf's one ?22:06
gogetai need to wiki access22:06
faenilwe need updated instructions :)22:06
faenilgogeta: same account as obs22:06
faeniljust login22:06
locusfits in my desktop22:07
faenillocusf: PR to the ks repo and update wiki?22:07
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gogetafaenil, does't work22:07
faenilalso, are we sure the instructions on the wiki are updated?22:07
locusffaenil: sure22:07
faenilgogeta: mm :/ strange...22:07
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faenilgogeta: oh, I think mer bugzilla account22:08
faenilcreate one and use that, iirc22:08
faenillocusf: great, thanks a lot22:08
faenillet's try to bring the ship back afloat :)22:08
locusfnp22:08
faenilI'll try the image tomorrow and update the usage instructions22:08
faenilwe also need some easy "get package, compile, and run on VM" setup22:08
faenilfor those who want to test packages22:09
faenilon nemo22:09
gogetafaenil, either22:09
faenilgogeta: ?22:09
M4rtinK2yeah, the easier this is the more likely it is people will contribute22:09
faenilmer bugzilla should work22:09
faenilwe're still dependant on the merge to happen to fix a lot of things22:09
gogetanor obs nor bugzilla22:09
locusfM4rtinK2: exactly22:09
faenilbut in the meanwhile, let's see what we can do..22:09
gogetalocusf, now I swear ... we need the sailfishos SDK counterpart22:10
gogetanext next next and you are ready22:10
gogetabtw I don't really like it so much22:10
locusfgogeta: thats the utopia yes22:10
M4rtinK2for the record I'm not using the Sailfish SDK :)22:10
faenil:)22:10
locusfwe can use saikfish sdk22:11
faenilI have never used it for Nemo development22:11
faenilalways used mer sdk + mb222:11
M4rtinK2I think it is kinda redundant if you can SSH to the device & have a build service :)22:11
locusfjust switch the deploy vm22:11
locusfyes22:11
locusfmb2 all tne way22:11
faenil:)22:11
gogetalocusf, sometimes localhost building is nice22:11
gogetaespecially behind proxy22:12
faenilthe problem is cross-platform sdk22:12
gogeta;-)22:12
faenilfor that we need something like sailfish sdk..so...22:12
M4rtinK2well I understand why they went with vbox22:12
gogetais free22:12
M4rtinK2but I still like KVM much better :)22:12
gogetakvm lack some feature to run wayland on it22:12
faenilwe need to get Mac and Win sdks going as well..22:12
gogetai've talk wit rh kvm developers22:13
faenilvbox is probably the easiest way22:13
gogetafaenil, tizen guys use a forked qemu22:13
faenilideally I think we should just have people install sailfish sdk and mod it as needed22:13
gogetaand vmware so ...22:13
gogetafaenil, but old nokia tools22:13
gogetaall closed source ?22:14
faenil?22:14
gogetathe fake emulator22:14
faenil?22:14
locusfoh yes that22:14
gogetathe same you use while develop for n9 on desktop22:14
locusfwhich came with harmartan qt sdk22:14
gogetayep22:14
faenilyeah, so what? :)22:14
locusfjust pointed ojt I guess22:14
faenilI don't know much about it22:15
faenilif you guys have easy ways to get a crossplatform sdk let's go with that22:15
locusfI should get to sleep now, was nice seeing you M4rtinK2 :)22:15
gogetafaenil, when will be next mer-meeting ?22:15
faenilabout what22:15
faenilthere are only bug triages and sailfish community meeting at the moment afaik22:16
M4rtinK2locusf: also nice talking with you :)22:16
faenilno other meetings22:16
M4rtinK2locusf: good night :)22:16
gogetafaenil, you know what i mean22:16
locusfnn all :)22:16
faenilgogeta: nope :/22:16
faenillocusf: night o/22:16
M4rtinK2BTW, I've spotted some remaining modRana dependencies in UC22:16
faenilM4rtinK2: how is it going with vbox?22:16
gogetanight locusf22:16
M4rtinK2will try to get rid of them soon :)22:17
faenil:)22:17
faenilM4rtinK2: are you confident we'll be able to use UC?22:17
M4rtinK2faenil: don't know what to try next22:17
gogetahttps://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/22:17
faenilaren't they too much restrictive?22:17
M4rtinK2faenil: depends on what you want to do22:17
faenilas in, you can only have a common API if you ignore special UI features22:17
faenilyeah...22:17
faenilgogeta: that's the sailfish commmunity meeting22:18
faenilwe had it today22:18
faenilnext one is 10th march, after MWC22:18
gogetasome log22:18
M4rtinK2you can still code the special features on top22:18
M4rtinK2or abstract them away if possible22:18
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faenilgogeta: http://www.merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/22:18
faenilM4rtinK2: it will be a challenge :/22:19
gogetai hate telecom22:19
faenilbut you know them better22:19
M4rtinK2or even just provide a dummy API on platforms that don't have them22:19
gogetaand tomorrow i'll going to install 9 node cluster for them22:19
gogetai wanan kill me22:19
gogeta*wanna22:19
faenillol22:19
M4rtinK2I'm already doing something like that with QtPositioning22:19
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M4rtinK2I have a fake position source and even a custom fake Coordinate :)22:19
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M4rtinK2and I can feed it with gpsd data :)22:20
faenilI think the many UIs are too different :/22:20
M4rtinK2I'm not forcing you to us them ;-)22:21
M4rtinK2*use22:21
faenilI didn't mean that :)22:21
faenilI just can't see how you can properly abstract UIs which are so different22:22
M4rtinK2from my experience it works just fine with ha same UI code on desktop, Sailfish & Android :)22:22
faenilyes, but maybe because you are not using any special UI features?22:22
faenilmaybe it's just lists/buttons/menu?22:22
faenil(just guessing here)22:22
M4rtinK2I think the differences are kinda overrated22:22
faenilok22:22
M4rtinK2well, all mobile apps are mostly lists/buttons/menus22:23
M4rtinK2and the rest is usually custom controls anyway22:23
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M4rtinK2like the modRana map22:23
faenilnot saying you're wrong22:23
M4rtinK2or the layer selection tree22:23
faeniljust, it sounds fishy to me :)22:23
M4rtinK2it is of course a trade-off22:24
faenilbut if it works, why not!22:24
faenilyes that's the bet, is it still ok to develop all core apps?22:24
M4rtinK2hyper native integration vs not having to reinvent the wheel for each platform & keeping the UI forks in sync during development22:24
faenilM4rtinK2: sure, we just have to see how that actually works for apps of many different types22:27
M4rtinK2yeah, it really needs some real life evalution other than modRana22:27
M4rtinK2*evaluation22:27
M4rtinK2I would propose the messaging app :)22:28
faenil:)22:28
faenilnot even sure that's enough!22:28
M4rtinK2really liked tbrs idea of using the Nemo messaging app on Sailfish22:28
faenilI think it's a bet, either it works or we waste a lot of time22:28
faenilbut if you think it can work, we can test it22:28
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M4rtinK2to kinda show ho idiotic it is that the default one is closed :)22:29
M4rtinK2*how22:29
faenil:)22:29
faenilmakes sense22:29
M4rtinK2generally I think making Nemo stuff available outside of Nemo could really help with contributions/interest in Nemo22:33
faenilsure22:34
M4rtinK2as I think currently Nemo is not that attractive to developers or users if they have a kinda working semi closed platform22:34
faenilof course it's not :)22:34
M4rtinK2but without more interested people Nemo would not get up to par with Sailfish22:34
faenilit's attractive to those looking for a fully opensource stack22:34
M4rtinK2so kinda CATCH 2222:35
faenilthose who like being able to do what the hell they want with their phone22:35
faenilsomething what Jolla should have been, at least at the beginning22:35
faenilbefore business models started ruining everything22:35
faenilas usual22:35
M4rtinK2still, but people have a higher bar these days22:36
gogetafaenil, nowadays developer care about ads and reward programs22:36
M4rtinK2its not just Neo FreeRunner these days :)22:36
gogetajust read #jolla stream on twitter22:37
faenilthen let's shut everything down because we're never creating a nemo ecosystem with dev rewards :P22:37
M4rtinK2I don't think adds are something I'm missing on my mobile devices22:38
gogetain your mobile22:38
gogetabut in companies mobile22:38
gogetaads are business22:38
M4rtinK2gogeta: well we are doing just fine without adds in Fedora,  thank you very much :)22:38
M4rtinK2(as well as in RHEL for that matter)22:38
gogetaI wear fedora too22:39
M4rtinK2adds are a plague :P22:39
M4rtinK2at least in the way how they have infested Android22:39
gogetabtw dev hates ur ecosystem22:40
gogetaM4rtinK2, you can find me on twitter tomorrow ok ?22:41
gogetagood night22:41
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faenilgood night people o/22:42
M4rtinK2night :)22:43
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bencoh23:33 < M4rtinK2> generally I think making Nemo stuff available outside of Nemo could really help with contributions/interest in Nemo23:31
bencoh+123:31
M4rtinK2bencoh: thanks :)23:32
bencohlots of interesting things are in development, and those could be used in other projects23:32
M4rtinK2exactly23:32
M4rtinK2IMHO "perfect native integration" just means no one will be able to actually use your stuff outside of your little "native" niche23:33
M4rtinK2so the more places things can run, the better :)23:34
bencohiOS/android are still the main target for handheld applications, and .... a lot of people could gain from having opensource components they can leverage23:35
M4rtinK2yep23:35
M4rtinK2I still think Jolla missed a chance of establishing "THE" mobile component set by not open sourcing Silica23:36
bencohprolly23:36
M4rtinK2so hopefully Glacier & other Nemo project will be able to step in instead :)23:36
bencohit's a shame that when I look for some specific software all I can see is 1. jolla-specifc stuff 2. maemo-specific stuff 3. ubuntu/touch bloat23:37
M4rtinK2actually, modRana runs on all 3 :D23:38
M4rtinK2same code base :)23:38
bencohhaha, yeah :-)23:38
bencohbut that's (almost) an exception23:38
M4rtinK2well yeah23:38
bencoh(and it's python, bouh :> ... I was talking about "native" to be honest)23:38
M4rtinK2and that's wrong IMHO23:38
M4rtinK2whats so ba d about Python ? ;-)23:39
M4rtinK2*bad23:39
bencohpersonal taste, nevermind :-)23:39
M4rtinK2hh :D23:39
bencohbut really, it shouldnt be like that :)23:39
M4rtinK2yeah23:40
M4rtinK2currently it is like not being able to run virt manager in KDE23:40
M4rtinK2just because it uses GTK23:40
M4rtinK2and that's wrong23:41
bencohporting UI components (and maintaining them for other platforms) might be part of the solution, I dunno23:41
M4rtinK2yeah, you either port the components23:43
M4rtinK2or use an abstraction layer like Universal Components23:43
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M4rtinK2you can also just rewrite the code to use the different component set23:44
M4rtinK2but that's is really doable only for simple applications that are "done"23:44
M4rtinK2and won't change once ported23:44
bencohyeah, maintaining a codebase with a different component set is a pain23:45
bencoheven porting can be a pain23:45
M4rtinK2that's basically why I created UC23:46
M4rtinK2no way I would be able to reasonably maintain separate branches for UI as complex as the modRana one23:46
bencohis it Qt5 only ?23:46
M4rtinK2would be tons of totally useless work23:47
M4rtinK2there are currently 2 maintained GUIs23:47
M4rtinK2the GTK (2) one used on the N90023:47
bencohoh <323:47
M4rtinK2and on desktop23:47
bencohhmm waitamin, arent you talking about qml/UC ?23:48
M4rtinK2and the Qt 5/QtQuick 2.0 one used on Sailfish, desktop and Android23:48
M4rtinK2also a not really maintained old Qt 4/QtQuick 1.1 one23:48
M4rtinK2and all GUIs use the same Python core23:49
M4rtinK2dos that answer your qustions ? :)23:49
M4rtinK2*questions23:50
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bencohpart of it23:53

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