Sunday, 2015-03-08

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Stskeepsmorn locusf07:08
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sandy_lockeqwazix: I'm there for the day, sorry for the lack of news, something came up. Are you available at some point today ?11:41
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qwazixsandy_locke, I will be available in about 2h if that's okay with you12:30
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sandy_lockeqwazix: ping14:48
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qwazixsandy_locke, pong14:59
sandy_lockehi qwazix :-)15:00
sandy_lockeat last  ;-)15:00
sandy_lockeso I wanted to do some icons today15:00
sandy_lockeif you've got time to talk guidelines et al ?15:01
qwazixyeah, just need 10 minutes to finish sth.15:01
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qwazixsandy_locke, ready15:16
sandy_lockeso are we going to keep the rounded style ?15:16
sandy_lockeand are we going to keep what's already done or begin from scratch ?15:17
qwazixwe'll keep what's already done15:17
qwazixI'm happy with it and I've heard positive comments too15:17
qwazixso application icons stay circlish15:18
qwazixI'm also happy with the statusbar icons (your design IIRC)15:18
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qwazixso I think we should make the guidelines fit the icons, not the other way around15:19
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sandy_locke1 or two icons were already made by hurrian I think15:21
sandy_lockebut ok, we keep what we got, and we continue this way15:21
sandy_lockeso as for the guideline, we begin with : circlish15:22
sandy_lockedo you have some place where I can see them ? I think the artwork repo is down, no ?15:22
sandy_lockeand the homescreen's15:23
qwazixfirst of all, there are two kinds of icons in nemo, right?15:24
sandy_lockeI see that  you modified the statusbar icons, I like it -)15:24
qwazixapplication icons: full color, circlish15:25
sandy_lockeand system ones15:25
qwazixyeah, or duotoned15:25
qwazixI only changed the gps one i think15:25
qwazixwhich is less accurate than before, but it's cleaner\15:26
sandy_lockethe charger icons are more rounded also15:27
qwazixthe application icons guidelines are pretty good, suggestions for improvement always welcome, but I think they convey the message15:27
qwazixmaybe I tweaked those too, I don't remember15:27
sandy_lockeplay should be more rounded then, it stands out as it is15:28
qwazixyeah, why not.15:29
sandy_lockethere are some icons I dislike though15:29
sandy_lockefor apps15:29
qwazixas long as it is obvious it's a play icon15:29
sandy_lockethe settings one, the video one are not vivid enough15:30
qwazixthere are some that could use some improvement yeah15:30
sandy_lockeI think use of some sort of "classic" grey should be avoided15:30
qwazixI like settings, I agree with you on videos15:30
sandy_lockeit's the grey on settings that bothers me15:31
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qwazixtry changing it, if you find something you like better, we can discuss it15:32
sandy_lockeok I'll look into it15:32
qwazixmaybe swap the gear colors15:32
sandy_lockeyeah that's what I was thinking15:33
sandy_lockethe "surf" icon is kind of 90ish15:33
qwazixdocuments could use some improvement too, but anyway, (a) we don't have a documents app yet and (b) I'd prefer to have the system icons first and then finetune the apps15:34
sandy_lockeyeah that's a better approach I agree15:34
sandy_lockein the list of icons, I put documents as a system app, maybe it should be fixed15:35
sandy_lockebtw did you upload the list somewhere ,15:35
qwazixalso keep in mind that we might end up using a third party app as default, and we might want to use their icon15:36
qwazixehm, no, let me do it right now15:36
sandy_lockesomething that bother me globally, is that some icons are minimalist, and other are detailed15:36
sandy_lockethere's not enough consistency when you look at them like this15:37
sandy_lockei.e: files or packages against people or music for instance15:37
sandy_locketo name just them15:38
sandy_lockeit would have been good to stick with one or the other ?15:38
qwazixmy method was "as simple as possible as long as it is recognisable"15:43
qwazixfor example I tried making a circular folder look like a folder, for "files" but it wasn't clear enough15:44
qwazixon the other hand, remember that app icons will be mixed with app icons, which usually aren't so strictly consistent15:45
sandy_lockeyeah, but then minimalist icons should play more on gradients don't you think ?15:45
locusfnice to see designer talk here :)15:45
qwazixlocusf, :)15:45
sandy_lockeo/ locusf15:46
locusfhey qwazix sandy_locke :)15:46
locusfwhat do you guys think about our desktop targets?15:46
sandy_lockelocusf: what is it ?15:47
locusfsandy_locke: rpi2 and minnowmax15:47
qwazixlocusf, could be a very nice, easy to develop for, touch friendly kiosk OS15:48
sandy_lockewhat ? To have a desktop version of nemo ? Like a responsive nemo ?15:48
locusfqwazix: +115:48
qwazixsandy_locke, that's a dream I've been having since a long time15:48
sandy_lockeI'm all in :-)15:48
sandy_lockeit would be really great15:49
qwazixbut we gotta first make the phone edition more complete15:49
locusfjust a starrt though15:49
sandy_lockewell, if nemo will eventually get into this, better think about implementations now15:49
sandy_lockeafterwards it will be a nightmare to adapt everything for desktop, no ?15:50
qwazixIn my opinion rough roadmap is: (of course anyone works on what fancies but this is what I believe is best for user adoption)15:50
qwazix1. ship usable sailfish home replacement app, easy to install and all, cover actions, everything15:50
qwazix2. make redistributable sdk, or sailfish sdk addon for glacier15:51
qwazix3. choose an android device as reference and ship images15:51
qwazix4. move to tablets, decide multi-window behavior and implementation15:52
qwazix5. too far in the future15:52
locusffor 3 we already have many candidates15:53
locusf1. needs setup work for glacier homescreen like moving binaries qnd proper uninstallation, coverr actions tricky as they are proprietary to jolla15:54
locusf4. completely doable if android, even more so for Jolla tablet15:54
sandy_lockefor 1. you need not to just make a sailfish clone15:54
locusfI see a lot of things to do15:55
locusfbut all within good range of doability15:55
sandy_lockeI pledged for the tablet, so I will be happy to alpha test :-)15:55
locusfsandy_locke: have you tried glacier on jolla?15:55
sandy_lockeno I don't own a Jolla yet15:55
sandy_lockeI wait for v215:55
locusfok well tablet should also have the homescreen completely replaceable15:56
sandy_lockeI bought one for my sister in law, but she is no geek at all and want a working device (in case I brick it)15:56
sandy_lockeI like the roadmap anyway, I'm eager to see it become a full fledged OSS OS :-)15:57
qwazixlocusf, okay, cover actions we can do without anyway15:59
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sandy_lockeI'll have a kiosk in my shop sooner or later, maybe I'll see with the kiosk engineer if he let me install nemo when it's ready ;-)15:59
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sandy_lockeqwazix: locusf: didn't we have specs for a similar stuff in store ?16:01
sandy_lockeI think I remember kind of an action based MT screen16:01
sandy_lockenice qwazix :-)16:02
locusfqwazix: sorry if I interrupted you, did you have something more?16:05
qwazixlocusf, I don't think so, things will change until step 4 anyway16:13
locusfqwazix: ok16:14
qwazixsandy_locke, locusf let's discuss the location icon for a sec16:14
qwazixwe have multiple states16:14
sandy_lockeqwazix:  like gps ?16:14
qwazix1. location off16:14
qwazix2. location on, gps reqested, no fix16:15
qwazix3. location on, wifi only16:15
qwazix4. location on, gps requested, no gps fix, wifi "fix"16:16
qwazixwe can do one icon with 4 states, or two seperate icons16:16
M4rtinKyou might also have a 2D and 3D fix ;-)16:16
sandy_lockeit's better to keep one emblem that represent gps all the time16:17
qwazixM4rtinK, I think that's too much info for the status bar16:17
sandy_lockei mean location16:17
M4rtinKand assisted/cold start GPS16:17
M4rtinKGlonass/GPS :)16:17
M4rtinKsure, just a note :)16:17
M4rtinKthose 4 look like the important ones16:18
qwazixsandy_locke, I'm kind of leaning towards two icons as gps is a battery killer and I'd like to know when it's on16:18
sandy_lockeis it possible to have a frame surrounding location+wifi icons when only wifi ?16:18
sandy_lockelike, those two are always side by side when on16:19
sandy_lockeand if location is wifi only, a frame surronds them or anything like that16:19
sandy_lockeif it is technically feasible, it's the easiest to understand imho16:20
qwazixif we use a monochrome version of the maps icon (i.e. a map point) when location is on (wi-fi) and the dish antenna icon when gps is on? This would take only one place in the status bar16:20
qwazixthough it won't be clear whether gps is just on or actually has a fix16:20
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sandy_lockewhat's a fix ?16:21
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qwazixM4rtinK, ^ I'm sure you're going to explain this better than me16:21
M4rtinKthat usually means that the gps system was able to pinpoint your coordinates with a reasonable accuracy16:23
sandy_lockethx M4rtinK16:23
M4rtinKeq. it got enough data from the GPS satelites to find where you are16:23
sandy_lockeok I understand now16:24
sandy_lockeI was thinking about blinking icon until fix16:24
M4rtinKthat's hot is is usually done16:24
sandy_lockeyup, that's why16:24
qwazixso "map pin", "dish antenna", "blue dish antenna"16:24
M4rtinKmaybe turning compass ? :)16:24
sandy_lockeno learning curve ;-)16:25
M4rtinKblue dish antenna == Bluetooth ? :)16:25
qwazixbluetooth is the B like here
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qwazixso it's pretty obvious it isn't that16:26
M4rtinKBTW, from technical perspective a dish antenna is nonsense - your device and even the GPS satellite has no such thing :)16:26
qwazixyeah I know16:26
M4rtinKbut we still see floppies in UIs so...16:26
qwazixbut it's instantly recognizable imho16:26
M4rtinKqwazix: but what if bluetooth is disabled ? :)16:26
qwazixI like the turning compass idea though16:26
sandy_lockeM4rtinK: because common people think gps==tv antena16:27
sandy_lockeno sorry satellite==tv antenna16:27
qwazixM4rtinK, our status bar icons are always shown (since the status bar isn't always visible)16:27
qwazixso the icon will always be there16:27
M4rtinKah, ok16:27
M4rtinKwell my idea is to convey "coordinates/location/navigation" rather than a specific location method (GPS)16:28
qwazixanyway, I'd go for any instantly recognizable gps icon. It's just that the old one we had was too complicated16:28
sandy_locke+1 for turning compass, but it means another icon to memorize16:28
M4rtinKas it break down once you add wifi/BTS positioning16:28
sandy_lockefor end users16:28
M4rtinKjust an idea :)16:28
qwazixM4rtinK, the point is I'd like to show when gps chip is on as it's a battery sucker16:28
M4rtinKWiFi positioning is a serious privacy hazard :)16:30
qwazixyeah, also that16:30
sandy_lockealthough we could also use the old icon as it would be a good fix indicator: antenna turn into satellite16:30
sandy_lockei.e : connected16:30
qwazixI still can't think anything better and self explanatory than "map pin", "dish antenna", "blue dish antenna"16:31
qwazixI like compass very much but it doesn't immediately convey the method: imagine map pin, turning compass, compass16:31
sandy_lockealthough white dish antenna could also mean GPS turned off in settings...16:32
qwazixwould you instantly recognize why map pin turned into compass?16:32
M4rtinK ! :D16:32
sandy_lockeM4rtinK: I actually thought about that when designing the first icon ;-)16:32
qwazixsandy_locke, you are right and android already suffers from this problem, but I think that off should be faded like wifi off currently16:33
sandy_lockemmh,  nice qwazix so we should add this fourth icon in the specs16:33
qwazixsandy_locke, M4rtinK what about if we repurpose the nfc icon for gps?16:34
sandy_lockelike a semi transparent dish antenna16:34
qwazixnfc already has a logo
sandy_lockeqwazix: I don't like the idea, this for nfc is self-explenatory imho since it convey the idea of quick close connection16:35
sandy_lockeqwazix: as you wish, but this logo need redesign to fit with our other system icons16:36
qwazixunfortunately I don't think we can modify it (just like bluetooth) as it's a trademark16:36
qwazixbut on the other hand having the standard icons helps usability enormously16:37
sandy_lockeall our icons are round(ed), this one is squircle-ish16:37
sandy_lockeif you look BT/NFC/GPS, they are consistent, and what you propose would break that16:38
sandy_locke(if we cannot modify it)16:38
qwazixwe'll put it in a circle of course16:38
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qwazixbtw, ignore the rounded square16:39
qwazixthe N mark is the actual logo i think16:39
qwazixlet me make sure16:39
sandy_lockeok then, we can do that, we did it for BT anyway16:39
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sandy_lockedo we have a screenshot with the new statusbar icons ? (homescreen screenshot)16:41
qwazixI think there is one floating around16:42
qwazixthis has the previous gps icon16:43
qwazixno, the n-mark has the rounded rectangle included, you can't use only it's negative16:44
sandy_lockearf, I wanted to see the new gps and battery ones16:47
qwazixsandy_locke, I'm not sure they are implemented16:50
qwazixanyway, let's sleep on this for the moment16:51
sandy_lockeqwazix: anyway I think the GPS icon is good as it is16:51
sandy_lockeit fits with the others and is understandable16:51
qwazixwe agree that we need four states off/wifi/gps-nofix/gps-fix16:51
sandy_lockeand the 4 states you proposed are interesting16:51
qwazixthe actual icons are still TBD16:52
sandy_lockeso we have: semi-transparent, pin, white, blue16:52
qwazixyeah I like this16:54
qwazixsee pirate pad16:54
qwazixI'm setting up system icon states16:54
sandy_lockeI like the idea of these 4 states since it overcomes a common nerving issue with smartphones16:55
sandy_lockemore transparency too :-)16:55
qwazixsandy_locke, we have to indicate focus with something else though16:56
sandy_lockewait, phone sorry16:56
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sandy_lockeqwazix: ping17:21
sandy_lockeI liked the gsm icon better with less radius17:23
sandy_lockeit was better fitted with the bottom of the wifi icon17:24
sandy_locke(although there's no radius there, maybe we should add one)17:25
qwazixI just wanted to show that we should do a tab-like focus indicator instead of using blue, now that blue is used for "special" state17:26
sandy_lockeyes you're right17:26
qwazix(we could add some roundness to the wifi icon too though)17:26
sandy_lockeand it fits nicely as you speced it17:26
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qwazixit won't be as clear with dark wallpapers though17:27
sandy_locke(yes that's what I was talking about)17:27
sandy_lockeit should be as you specced : same color/grey as the pane that slides up17:27
sandy_lockeso if pane is semi-trans, icon background should be too17:28
sandy_lockedon't remember if we defined opacity for the pane17:28
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qwazixit's semitransparent yeah, ~90%17:29
qwazixI got to go now, feel free to edit the piratepad with more icons. I will create a github repo for system icons so that we can work with the usual pull requests.17:31
sandy_lockenice, just email me the repo if you can17:31
sandy_lockeI'll keep the pad in my bookmarks17:32
sandy_lockeright now, I'll make a pause since I had a rough day and my head will explode at some point :-P17:32
qwazixwe have to decide about licensing too at some point17:34
qwazixI will leave it as none for the time being. I'm favoring GPL but I don't know if it is suited for artwork like icons.17:34
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locusfcc4 would work17:35
sandy_lockeyeah I believe creative commons are most suited17:35
locusfwe probably don't want nc?17:36
qwazixI need to pester someone to add me to nemomobile organization on github so that I can move those repos17:36
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sandy_lockeqwazix: cloned localy :-)17:36
qwazixlocusf, no we don't want nc. It doesn't even classify as free software then.17:37
sandy_lockecommercial use is ~17:37
sandy_lockenot because we did work on it, but because we'd like it to stay open and free, don't you think ?17:38
qwazixsandy_locke, I'm thinking no folders, everything dumped in root, layers inside svg file for states, no png's and we could write a nice script to export pngs after the fact17:39
sandy_lockeif we script it, we should have all icons the same canvas size, and padding between states also the same17:40
sandy_lockelike this the script can iterate horizontally until there's no more canvas to export17:41
qwazixone change: no states, we will use an svg property to mark things that should be blue/white and do the states with a script too, so that we can change color schemes easily down the road17:41
sandy_lockemmmh, how you do that ? with inkscape ?17:42
qwazixsandy_locke, hmm, maybe that would be nice too, all icons in same svg file17:42
sandy_lockeah you do that with the script ok17:42
qwazixyou can do it externally with js or else17:42
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sandy_lockenice, I'll let you make the first two canvas into the file ? Since you must have a better idea of how the script would work ?17:43
qwazixit's better to keep different icons in seperate svg files now that I think about it, less conflicts to merge if two people work on different icons17:44
qwazixand nicer git history17:44
qwazix(though a bit harder to work with many windows open)17:44
qwazixok I'll do that17:44
sandy_lockeso no state ? only one icon by file in one canvas ?17:45
qwazixI'll make a quick guide on how to mark paths for state change with inkscape later17:47
sandy_lockeok thx, so I'll have to use inkscape ;-)17:47
sandy_locke(not so used to it, but it will be fun anyway)17:48
qwazixyou'll have to use it at least for marking the paths that change color17:48
qwazix(except if you prefer to do it with a text editor, that's also possible)17:48
sandy_lockeyeah but if we have to put the icon in a specific place on the canvas, I can't use a software that risk to break the positioning17:48
qwazixnot now, no17:49
qwazixthat would be the case if we had multiple icons on the canvas17:49
sandy_lockeok then17:49
qwazixnow we don't really care about the position17:49
qwazixjust the size17:49
sandy_lockeyeah, all we want is replace white or whatever with accent color17:50
qwazix(we could also use a "magic" color but that's a hack)17:50
qwazixI prefer if we use svg attributes17:50
sandy_locke(don't know about it)17:51
qwazixbye for now, have a good rest17:51
sandy_lockethx, good evening you too17:51
sandy_lockesee ya17:51
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locusfok see you sandy_locke18:00
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