Friday, 2015-05-08

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faenillocusf: qwazix filippz stephg (feel free to tag other people who may be interested) so...the merge will still take a long time it seems, for business or personal reasons that we have no power over, what do we want to do?10:36
faenilthe idea here was to wait for the merge to complete so we could set up the release process, patterns, image building back up again10:39
faeniland then resume development, once the situation on that side is sane again10:40
faenilbut since things are moving at a slow pace, what do you think we should do?10:41
faenilkeep using the frankestein merged obs repo and keep developing components and rebuild core apps?10:41
faeniltbr as well ^10:42
faenilor abandon the project?10:42
faeniland since sledges is not active in this channel anymore, I'll just leave this here :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY010:44
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qwazixfaenil, I'm more and more thinking we should transition to building home + apps over vanilla sailfish for the time being10:46
faenilqwazix: that could make sense, at this point in time...10:46
qwazix(not optimal, but has much lighter curve for new contributors and is actually possible)10:47
faenilqwazix: yeah...10:47
sledgesfaenil:P10:47
faenilsledges: o/10:47
qwazixalso we can use the distributable sailfish sdk10:47
qwazixs/distributable/distributed/10:48
faenilsure...10:48
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sledgesthis is what locusf already did with #sailpi10:50
locusfyeah I had the idea of using nemo but I stuck with sfos, sorry :)10:52
locusfits really sad to see this situation now10:52
locusfI'm in the option for waiting to see if this merger thing happens10:53
faenillocusf: so you vote more waiting10:55
faenilyeah the situation is sad indeed10:55
faenillbt: can you confirm what needs doing is nothing that can be put on our shoulders? sorry if I ask again10:55
sledgesam i right: locusf has already shifted onto an alternative until situation improves10:56
sledgesbut i understand that nemo can't be left hanging like that on longer run10:58
locusfsledges: right and wrong, I wanted to use sfos for the added attention that it has, nemo is more free and sailpi could use it more for the free software niche of people10:58
tbrfaenil: I don't have good insight, but I'm concerned about Mer infrastructure too.11:02
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tbrfaenil: also to spell out what you implied: completion, or even significant progressof the merge is probably unlikely before the tablet ships due to how people who can do anything are stressed/burdened otherwise. And to spell it out, I don't blame them. It's ship-or-bust.11:04
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tbrfaenil / locusf: I think we should reevaluate though what options there are to move ahead on some level despite the status quo11:07
tbrIf the sailfish targets are the only ones in a usable state, then we should consider using those as the basis for work that doesn't depend too much on the underpinnings. e.g. getting the app development restarted11:09
tbrother options could be related to nemo essentially forking itself (hopefully temporarily). In what form is hard for me to tell.11:11
qwazixtbr, exactly (re: targets)11:11
tbrWhat I'm trying to say "Let's not have the merge stop us from doing great stuff with open source"11:11
qwazixwe don't have the manpower to fork, not by a long shot11:12
tbrqwazix: yeah, you'd need to put "fork" in quotes. It could be any form of temporary way to get forward. E.g. by taking a sailfish target and modifying it and overlaying it with updated packages11:13
tbrI'm happy to help in my limited capacity11:14
tbrthere is one downside though, we incur technical debt and it's going to be even harder for a new person to understand how this all works and fits together11:14
qwazixI still prefer the "based on sailfish" approach, even if it's dirty11:15
tbrI guess that should at least allow the application/ui story to go forward11:16
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faenilyeah...12:07
faenillocusf: I'll ping you during weekend to play with it on my jolla, if that's fine by you12:07
faenillet's push this ship together! \o/12:09
faenilspaceship, I would call it, give Glacier's style :D12:09
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locusffaenil: I'm at Helsinki now and only available at monday, sorry12:52
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itviewerhi,where can I find the latest mer source code repository?13:04
itviewerfor example,the qt version in http://repo.merproject.org/obs/mer-core is qt5.2.1。13:04
itviewerWhile,I spend a lot of time finally found two possible places may contain the source code:13:04
itviewer1、https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/qtbase13:04
itviewer2、https://github.com/mer-packages/qtbase13:04
itviewerbut none of them contain the qt5.2.1(first one is qt5.0.2,second one is qt5.1.0)13:04
itviewerNow,I've been confused by the chaotic management of the project。13:04
faenillocusf: no problem13:14
faenilitviewer: let me check13:14
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itviewerthanks13:15
faenilitviewer: so, generally speaking, when you want to see where a package comes from13:15
faenilyou go to build.merproject.org13:15
faenilyou "search" for the package13:16
faenilin this case, you end up here https://build.merproject.org/package/show/mer-core:devel/qtbase13:16
faenilonce you're there, there's a file called "_service" which describes where OBS will pull the sources from13:16
faenilif you open that file, you'll find the URL where the package source resides ;)13:17
faenil(due to the nemo-mer merge being stuck for, like, 1 year, the URL I linked has an 8 months old package)13:17
faenilif you want to know what git repo is used in latest sailfish version, you'll have to ask a sailor, like Stskeeps13:18
faenilStskeeps is happy when people bug him, so feel free!13:18
faenillol13:18
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faenilHurrian: you may want to express your opinion about the points I previously raised as well :)13:19
faenilHurrian: and aside from that, how are you doing? :)13:19
Hurrianfaenil: hold on, checking the logs!13:20
faenilHurrian: great, thanks13:20
Hurrianand I've been _pretty_ busy over the past few months with uni stuff, and modding a G5 case to fit ATX parts13:20
itviewerfaenil: too confused, I get it ,thank 有13:21
itviewerthank you13:21
faenilitviewer: too confused? if you need help just ask :)13:21
faenilHurrian: oh, cool :)13:21
itviewerI say the management of mer project13:22
faenilitviewer: yeah, I can't help with that :/13:22
itviewerI know that,infact I intend to establish a branch based mer13:24
Hurrianwell, yeah, this is odd, the project is basically forking itself13:24
faeniloh, I see13:24
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tbrHurrian: funny enough that was the threat that was put up to enforce the merge happening in the way it started. "do it this way or we fork mer privately"13:25
faenilyeah, kind of13:25
Hurrianit feels like the gcc/egcs thing all over again13:25
faenilI mean, it made sense, since jolla is the main force behind it13:26
faenilbut then, if in 14months you can't find the time to finish this merge13:26
faenilwhy should it happen in 2 months?13:26
Hurrianso, lemme get this straight, jolla wants to take Mer core in their direction?13:27
faenilHurrian: I don't remember the details, but there was a discussion about that13:28
faeniland that's "fine", but they don't even have the time to move Mer in their direction!13:28
tbrHurrian: they would like to work on it in the open etc. their problem is resource constraints13:28
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faenilyeah, they're still too resource constrained13:28
Hurrianmmm13:29
faenilsuper focused on delivering the tablet13:29
tbrbecause all resources go into surviving. developing mer is understandably not a priority13:29
faenilyeah13:29
Hurrianeh, i'd say that at this point it's worth forking the (Nemo+Nemo-mw) repos13:31
faenilHurrian: I don't know if that's a solution13:31
Hurrianthe (inevitable) mix of the Nemo and Mer projects is making things sticky, unfortunately from what I see13:32
faenilHurrian: it's not really the mixing of the two13:33
faenilit's moving everything to GitLab13:33
faenilwhich is blocking the whole thing13:33
faenilbecause it seems it requires knowledge which only some sailors have13:33
faeniland I've been told it's not easy to transfer that knowledge, or there's no time, or both13:33
Hurrianintegration with their CI for example?13:33
faenildon't know...13:34
faenillbt surely has a more detailed picture of what's left13:34
faenilone thing is settings the correct permissions for the new gitlab repos13:34
faeniltrying to replicate what's currently on github13:35
Hurrianoh, that plus the issue tracker etc?13:35
Hurrianyep that's messy13:35
faeniland I tried to help with that by creating a json which describes the permissions and groups, which I built manually analyzing the git history of all the nemo contributors for the last year13:35
faenilthen lbt will make a script which takes that file and applies those permissions to the gitlab repos13:36
faenilaside from that, I don't know what needs doing13:36
faenilI just remember Stskeeps being quite confident in end of January that we could be done with the merge soon after MWC13:36
faenilso, it must not be *that much* work13:37
faenilit's just that the only people who can do it are stuck/busy, understandably13:37
faeniland, as tbr said, I don't blame them13:38
Hurrianyeah, probably just set aside - there are better things to do than maintain infra when you gotta ship a product13:38
faenilI just find it so annoying to have my hands tied for a year :(13:38
faenilHurrian: exactly13:38
faenilHurrian: stuff like surviving :D13:38
Hurrianso, is the plan to use the web gitlab instance or a community/jolla-hosted one?13:39
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itviewer“I just find it so annoying to have my hands tied for a year” +11111……13:40
Hurrian(wait, is _this_ why it feels that a lot of the work has stalled?)13:41
tbrHurrian: want fries with that realization?13:41
faenilHurrian: yes13:42
faenilHurrian: Mer's gitlab13:43
faenilhttps://git.merproject.org/users/sign_in13:43
Hurrianah, a self hosted one13:43
Hurrianyep, this migration is going to take some time13:43
* tbr suddenly feels reminded of https://hakanforss.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/are-you-too-busy-to-improve/ - especially the first13:44
faenilHurrian: the merge started 1 year ago, I think, maybe more13:44
tbrI think it was last year's FOSDEM that it came up13:45
faeniltbr: :D awesome13:45
Hurrianwow, that's... quite some time now13:45
faenilHurrian: right??13:45
Hurrianand I assume jolla maintains the repos?13:45
faenilI got to the point of thinking we could collect money and ask lbt to do it in his spare time13:46
faenilHurrian: the issue really is we don't know what needs doing, I told you what I know (the permissions stuff), and I don't know what else needs doing, and nobody says13:46
Hurrianyep, it's a black box alright13:47
faenilI keep pinging lbt weekly to get status updates, and asking for a way to help13:47
faeniland in the end I feel like I'm just sounding like a moron, because nothing changed, not even a bit!13:47
Hurrianimo, community infra needs to be documented publicly - we don't hire a full-time sysadmin, so trustworthy users In The Circle (tm) should be able to pass the torch when needed13:47
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faenilHurrian: how can I not agree13:48
faenilwho dooes that though? jolla is busy working on the tablet13:48
faeniland they're the only ones with the map, or at least I couldn't get a map!13:49
Hurrianwho hosts merproject.org?13:49
faenilI know that there are a few servers which live thanks to donations by Mer contributors (most of whom are jolla's employees)13:50
tbrI'm only aware of people who are jolla employees who have access to all infrastructure.13:50
tbrI'm probably one of the few who has limited access to some VMs inside. Mainly because of merbot13:51
Hurrianso, basically maintained by Jolla13:51
tbrI'm sure they would object to that statement, but practically, yes13:52
faeniland thank god Jolla's there :)13:52
Hurrian(oh nice they segregate things into VMs at least)13:52
tbrHurrian: it's a very clean setup AFAIU. physical machines, running only VMs that can be migrated around13:53
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Hurrianand that's the way it should be :D13:54
Hurrianunfortunately, that indeed boils options down to what were discussed13:56
Hurrianaccrue technical debt, or fork13:56
Hurrian(arguably forking would incur its own technical debt, having to set up and maintain _more_ infra and having more repos to merge back down the line)13:57
Hurrianit looks like we'll have to twiddle our thumbs for a while longer D:13:57
tbrHurrian: I wonder though if the immediate penalty would outweigh the time lost in the long run.13:59
Hurrianwell, that depends on _when_ you'd want to take the hit for it14:00
* lbt notes discussion14:00
tbrHurrian: given a vague similarity between Tizen and Mer, it might be even reasonably easy to take a one time hit and rebuild Nemo on Yocto/OpenEmbedded/TizenCore14:00
lbtFWIW mer infra is essentially hosted and paid for by me, carsten, jolla and 1-2 community members (in that order)14:00
Hurriancontinuing to work on the current repos (and builders held together by duct tape and bash) would defer the hit to when the merge actually happens14:00
tbrHurrian: the benefit would be that you get rid of the infrastructure maintenance at the cost of everyone running their own copy of the build system14:01
lbtfwiw there are 34 VMs and a number of OBS workers on about 13 physical servers14:02
faenillbt: thanks for the details14:02
lbtand also, fwiw, the infra shouldn't need any changes - the one thing that's a bit needed is to setup permissions on gitlab iirc14:03
lbtthere's a couple of tasks (patterns) which also block some community HA work14:03
faenillbt: can't we spend a couple hours together to tell me how to fix permissions so that we can complete the merge?14:04
faenilI'm open to spending the full weekend on it14:04
Hurrianthat's a pretty big one time hit to rebase on OpenEmbedded/Tizen though14:04
locusfwhat happened to waiting :)14:04
tbrlocusf: 1+ yesars happened14:05
locusfI was away for 2 hours and you're rebasing to tizen now :)14:05
faenillocusf: hahahah14:05
faenilnah it's just a proposal, I'd scrap rebasing on something else, honestly14:06
tbrlocusf: no, I'm just idly pondering the options14:06
locusfokay :)14:06
bencohrebuilding nemo on OE <314:06
bencoh(getting rid of obs \o/)14:06
tbrsee, we found a volunteer ;)14:07
bencohhaha :)14:07
faenilwhat OE?14:07
faenilwhat's*14:07
tbrOpenEmbedded14:07
faeniloh14:07
tbrthe build system14:07
tbrYocto is the project that organizes things14:07
faenilah ok14:07
tbrand Poky, Angstrom and Tizen are distro output that it can produce (there are more, those are the popular ones)14:08
bencohthey've had support for systemd and qt for quite some time, and the bitbake layers seem like a reasonable implementation for the "hw abstraction" design14:08
bencohso it might be a good candidate14:08
tbrbencoh: if one stays with MIC for the images, then it's also possible to do hybrid work. I was entertaining that idea long ago for building HW adaptations using the YÖP toolbox and reuse in a Mer/Nemo context14:09
bencohMIC would then fetch binaries resulting from the OE build ?14:10
tbrthe build would spit out a RPM repository and MIC would fetch from it14:10
bencohyeah14:10
Hurrian(wait, wasn't OE used to build WebOS and most of the Openmoko phone distros? that's quite the variety)14:10
bencohit was used in webos, SHR14:11
tbrHurrian: yes, also Opie and others14:11
bencohquite a lot of people use it14:11
tbrI _suspect_ that someone more versed in OE plumbing could put together a proof of concept meta-nemo in a weekend14:12
bencohhe'd also need to be quite versed in nemo arcanes :)14:12
tbrthe challenge would be in converting rpm specs to bb recipes14:13
tbrunless there is some automated way of handling specs14:13
* tbr never looked close enough at meta-tizen14:13
bencohthere are some tools to help with that14:13
bencohbut nothing really works out of the box14:14
bencoh(afaict)14:14
tbryeah14:14
bencohbut erm ... what about the jolla/sf devs ?14:15
tbrthat's why this is just theoretical pondering right now14:15
bencoh(not that I care, but they might not like/want to move everything)14:15
tbrbencoh: they won't. they're stuck with the status quo. the problem is that there is no resource available to go beyond maintaining the status quo14:16
tbrthat's why I'm not really serious about this beyond thought experiments. It would be a radical move and would mean full departure from the current coexistence.14:17
bencohyeah14:19
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faeniloh I just remembered the other showstopper, updating our QQC requires Qt5.3..16:39
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