Saturday, 2017-04-15

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TopiasTelegram[mReply to qwazix (IRC):09:55
TopiasTelegram[m>qwazix (IRC): http://qwazix.com/shared/phone.pdf09:55
TopiasTelegram[mA few questions09:55
TopiasTelegram[mAbout this spec09:55
TopiasTelegram[mDo the menu buttons always haven't to be on top? And does the tab bar support side swipes?09:57
TopiasTelegram[mI think we should really consider these things from usability perspective09:58
TopiasTelegram[mI wouldn't want Nemo to be a regression on usability from Sailfish OS09:58
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TopiasTelegram[mAlso, having a T9 thing on dialer is kinda pointless imo10:01
TopiasTelegram[mRather there should be a search bar if you want to search for contacts10:02
TopiasTelegram[mWhen you type numbers you type numbers, when you type letters you type letters10:03
TopiasTelegram[mThat should be how it's done10:03
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TopiasTelegram[mAnd the buttons on top bar are too small10:15
TopiasTelegram[mSome UX concerns that came to mind10:17
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qwazixTopiasTelegram[m, let's take theme one by one. I'll start from the ones I think are already addressed.10:52
qwazixToo small buttons: I believe that the huge mobile screens of today are underused. If one could comfortably use the keyboard and the buttons of an N9 or an iPhone 4 I think the size of their buttons was good enough.10:53
qwazixBigger screen should mean more things, not bigger buttons. I do not remember exactly but our button hit area is a bit bigger than the N9.10:54
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qwazixOn the other hand, the user should always go and tweak the control size and when we are done with scaling we should add a setting to do just that.10:56
qwazixOn my not-so-huge 5.2" xperia I use 1 dpi setting smaller than default. On the 5.5" QHD LG G3 you could get away with 2 dpi settings smaller than default.10:58
qwazixThe tab bar doesn't exist yet. There is an old spec which was never implemented. The problem with that spec is it doesn't leave space for buttons, or header or anything leading to inconsistency11:00
TopiasTelegram[mReply to qwazix (IRC):11:02
TopiasTelegram[m>qwazix (IRC): Bigger screen should mean more things, not bigger buttons. I do not remember exactly but our button hit area is a bit bigger than the N9.11:02
TopiasTelegram[mwell, as long as it scales well enough11:02
TopiasTelegram[mbecause at least in the glacier test app, the buttons are waaay to small to hit accurately11:02
qwazixOn which device?11:03
TopiasTelegram[mJ111:03
TopiasTelegram[mbut not sure if the scaling is done properly on that11:04
TopiasTelegram[mI haven't updated yet11:04
TopiasTelegram[malso11:04
qwazixJ1 you mean SBJ?11:04
TopiasTelegram[mwhat is sbj?11:04
TopiasTelegram[mJolla111:04
qwazixyeah that was the code name of the device11:06
TopiasTelegram[mI don't speak agent11:06
TopiasTelegram[m:D11:06
TopiasTelegram[mI think that buttons like that shouldn't be used for changing views11:07
TopiasTelegram[mbuttons should be used to invoke actions11:08
qwazixhaha, anyway, the original design was with the N9 size/dpi11:08
TopiasTelegram[mfor changing views, one should use either a list view or a tab bar11:08
qwazixand now I can't remember the unlock code of the SbJ to check out11:08
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qwazixI agree, and I was trying a few things to make these buttons look more like a tab bar, but I didn't like any of that. For example a ^ pointing to the active one, or changing the background of the page to grey and having a grey tab behind the active icon11:10
qwazixbut those both interfere with the gradient of the header.11:10
qwazixand I agree with the search bar, so I'll just re-do it without a T911:11
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qwazixthe user will just need to switch the keyboard to T9 to type a number. And how often you call unknown numbers anyway...11:12
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qwazixOne thing that sailfishOS has and I wanted to avoid was the full-screen flickables. While they work nice with apps that are just lists, they tend to create confusion when apps need to use gestures in their canvas (maps, drawing etc.)11:15
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qwazixSo with that in mind, let's start a discussion of a new tabbed interface that actually works well within the header, and supports, but not requires, full screen swipes.11:16
TopiasTelegram[mqwazix11:21
TopiasTelegram[mI think the tab bar should not be in the header11:21
TopiasTelegram[mtab bar should be its own element11:22
qwazixTopiasTelegram[m, isn't it too much wasted space?11:27
TopiasTelegram[mwell not really11:28
TopiasTelegram[mbut with this system, header is very much overloaded11:28
TopiasTelegram[mback button, page header, tabs and overflow menu11:28
TopiasTelegram[mand you should be able to swipe between views11:29
qwazixOk, but what if there was a special space to swipe between views. E.g. tab bar on bottom, swipeable, but not the whole screen?11:32
TopiasTelegram[mwhat do you mean?11:33
qwazixI mean that what if you could be able to swipe between views only if you swiped on the tab bar, not the rest of the app11:34
qwazixThe reason I'm saying that is because it has become quite standard in all platforms to swipe left and right to delete/dismiss items in lists. Swipe left-right is not a "safe" gesture anymore. And while not implemented, we also have specs for that kind of behavior in nemo11:35
qwazixthis conflicts with full screen swipes11:35
qwazixhttps://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/blob/master/listview/listview-medium.pdf11:36
qwazixAlso, should the header be usability-wise, higher in the hierarchy than the tab bar or below? (i.e. does the header belong to the tab, or the app?)11:39
TopiasTelegram[mthere's not much value in having the swipe only in the tab bar11:40
TopiasTelegram[mheader should be view dependent11:40
qwazixIf it's in the bottom, that is more than enough accessible space to swipe.11:41
EmanueleSorceTelCan I do a question?11:42
qwazixand if it's in the bottom it's easier to make the header view dependent. Or even leave that to the developer. If the header swipes away then it was view dependent. If it stays and only the content swipes, then its for the whole app11:42
qwazixEmanueleSorceTel, go ahead11:42
TopiasTelegram[mI mean, if you have to aim for the tab bar to swipe switch a view, it's not really much different from just pressing the button to the tab11:43
EmanueleSorceTelIf I got correctly, Glacier is the 100% free software UI for Nemo, it is possible to use it one SailFish?11:43
EmanueleSorceTel*on11:43
TopiasTelegram[myes, I'm testing it on Jolla 111:44
qwazixTopiasTelegram[m, ok I will back down on this one and see how it goes in practice11:44
EmanueleSorceTelWill ever be the default there?11:44
qwazixEmanueleSorceTel, yes and yes11:44
qwazixbut it's not completely finished11:44
EmanueleSorceTelOn sfos, I mean11:44
TopiasTelegram[mqwazix: the whole swipe to switch view is good because you don't have to think too much to switch tabs11:44
qwazixTopiasTelegram[m, okay11:45
EmanueleSorceTelOk, thanks for the answers :)11:45
TopiasTelegram[mI do understand the concern that reserving left and right swipes limit the possibilities on app development11:47
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qwazixTopiasTelegram[m, yes but the if the developer wants he can avoid using the tab-view11:52
qwazixso it's not that big of an issue11:52
TopiasTelegram[mI think the two main navigation styles should be11:53
TopiasTelegram[mlist view11:53
TopiasTelegram[mand tab bar11:53
TopiasTelegram[mhamburger menu is aweful11:53
TopiasTelegram[mhamburger menu is almost never an option11:54
qwazixAgreed11:54
TopiasTelegram[mif you require to use a hamburger menu, most likely the better option is tab bar, a flat hierarchy11:55
TopiasTelegram[mI think the pulley menu on sailfish is also similarly complicated11:55
qwazixhamburger menu is awful in many ways11:57
TopiasTelegram[mtab bar increases user engagement11:57
qwazixone is that there is a thing hierarchy higher than the default view11:58
TopiasTelegram[mwhile hamburger menu decreases it11:58
qwazixand that confuses the hell of the back-button-navigation11:58
TopiasTelegram[mindeed11:58
qwazixsee for example on android how some apps open the hamburger when you click back on the main screen while some others just quit11:58
TopiasTelegram[myeah...11:59
TopiasTelegram[mon discord you can choose11:59
TopiasTelegram[mI like the nemo spec11:59
TopiasTelegram[mthat left edge swipe is back11:59
EmanueleSorceTelUbuntu touch uses top swipe for the OS top bar, left and right for swipes and apps use bottom bar12:00
EmanueleSorceTelLeft and Right for switch apps12:00
qwazixYeah that was the result of heated discussion :P. Ubuntu touch swipe scheme is too complicated IMO12:00
qwazixyou can't remember all those swipes12:00
TopiasTelegram[mit is...12:00
TopiasTelegram[mbut nemo should also use natural swipe gestures12:01
qwazixThe only reason we agreed to have the left back swipe (not implemented) is that it's almost the same as the others (if you keep swiping you eventually do the same thing)12:01
TopiasTelegram[mif a view slides to the left, one should be able to do the reverse to go back12:01
TopiasTelegram[mthat is good use of gestures12:01
qwazixTopiasTelegram[m, ha! That requires some clever coding.12:02
TopiasTelegram[mI mainly refer to how Sailfish OS works and how nemo page stack works12:03
qwazixIt needs to work like nautilus breadcrumbs, (i was advocating for that in my sailfish review on grog)12:03
qwazixi.e. remember which of the downstream pages was open before going back and allowing to go forward to that specific screen. It's a good interaction because it allows the user to easily "undo" a swipe12:03
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qwazixwhere are the latest nemo ui packages for sailfish these days?12:08
EmanueleSorceTelI got used to ubuntu touch swipes, and I have to say that three swipes to browse the entire OS and one app specific but always in the same place is not hard to use, it's very fast. However the UI is designed to suggest the four swipes, so they are natural12:10
qwazixgtg, see ya later12:17
SergeyChupliginThttps://github.com/neochapay/qtquickcontrols-nemo/commit/2516c342fbd2cb4cca2adff5057587b23859a63c12:24
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TopiasTelegram[mReply to Sergey Игоревич Chupligin (Telegram):12:34
TopiasTelegram[m>https://github.com/neochapay/qtquickcontrols-nemo/commit/2516c342fbd2cb4cca2adff5057587b23859a63c12:34
TopiasTelegram[mwhy is transition duration changed from a variable to a constant12:34
TopiasTelegram[mmaybe Theme is the wrong place for animation durations(?) but I think it should be defined in some sort of global settings object12:35
TopiasTelegram[mI added a comment12:40
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SergeyChupliginTReply to Topias (Telegram):12:48
SergeyChupliginT>why is transition duration changed from a variable to a constant12:48
SergeyChupliginTit not ended  commit12:48
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TopiasTelegram[mok, just noting that it should be fixed before merging13:07
TopiasTelegram[mbut I think it would be best practice not to change them like that even for temporarily13:08
TopiasTelegram[mbecause there's a danger for bug then13:08
TopiasTelegram[mif you change the variable, you'll get warned if the old one is still there13:09
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malqwazix: the old style tab view was implemented already, not sure if that should be modified somehow, the example app has it16:37
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qwazixok that changes the situation. Can you please point to the latest .rpm's to install them on my jolla so I don't talk out of my ass?16:41
malqwazix: which sailfish version do you have?16:42
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qwazixmal, latest stable let me see16:46
qwazix2.0.0.1016:47
eetuTelegram[m]qwazix, http://repo.merproject.org/obs/nemo:/devel:/ux/sailfishos_2.1.0.9/16:48
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malqwazix: 2.1.0.11 is latest stable16:51
malqwazix: 2.0.0.10 is quite old16:51
qwazixhm.. I just updated yesterday, let me check for updates again16:52
qwazixah yeah, probably it wanted to go step by step16:52
qwazixso do I just download and install or is there a way to add that as a repo?16:53
malqwazix: ssu ar nemo http://repo.merproject.org/obs/nemo:/devel:/ux/sailfishos_2.1.0.9/16:53
qwazixthanx16:53
malqwazix: then pkcon refresh and pkcon install the packages you want16:54
qwazixkk16:54
qwazixwaiting to do the system update first and then I'll check it out17:02
malok17:02
qwazixWe'll have to find a way to use that without much changes.17:04
qwazixmany*17:04
malwhat do you mean without much changes?17:04
qwazixThe original idea was that the tabbed view would be another "version" of the header. But that wasn't clear in the spec so I don't know how it is implemented (I thought it wasn't)17:05
malit's implemented as a separate row below the header17:08
qwazixBut above we were discussing about a tabbed view that contains the header, which might or might not need changes. I think we should avoid changes to things already done so we might want to rethink the view17:08
qwazixbased on the current implementation.17:08
qwazixbbl17:13
qwazixnothing provides libQt5Core.so.5(Qt_5) needed by lipstick-colorful-home-qt5-0.6.2-15.1.Nemo.U17:28
qwazixX.MTF.armv7hl17:28
qwazixmaybe I shouldnt have done the update?17:29
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malhmm17:33
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malqwazix: any luck?17:41
qwazixany ideas?17:42
qwazixhm no, tried other packages, the same. Google didn't show promise17:42
qwazixim also missing some icons after the upgrade17:44
maldid you try all packages? I usually install only qt5-qtquickcontrols-nemo lipstick-glacier-home-qt5 nemo-theme-glacier glacier-settings17:44
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malI use zypper to install usually, maybe try that (install zypper if it doesn't exist)17:45
qwazixgot it17:46
qwazixupdate removed the repo17:46
qwazixI added it again and it seems to be installing now17:46
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qwazixand now the example app doesnt run...17:49
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qwazixthis application failed to start because it could not find or load the Qt platform plugin17:50
qwazix"wayland"17:50
malhmm, did you start it from ui or commandline?17:51
qwazixboth17:52
qwazixui just fails, terminal shows error above17:52
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qwazixmaybe reboot17:53
qwazixok, now I think I killed it. Doesn't boot.17:59
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malhmm, when you installed the packages what did it remove?18:02
qwazixI don't think it did, or I missed it.18:03
qwazixi'll try ssh'ing in18:04
qwazixnothing...18:06
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qwazixgot in18:08
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qwazixpkcon update says it wants to update a couple of things, let's see if that fixes anything. I have a feeling that something went wrong in the previous update, ended too quickly18:18
qwazixFatal error: Installation aborted by user18:19
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qwazixlet's see if zypper follows through18:23
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eetuTelegram[m]which sfos version you are now?18:40
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qwazix2.1.0.1118:42
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qwazixjust got in, glacier-gallery works, without the fons18:42
qwazixfonts*18:42
qwazixthe tab bar is nothing like the specs, but we can work with it. And yeah it needs swipe.18:43
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malqwazix: yes, it needs work18:55
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malqwazix: about the tabbed view in current spec, how is that supposed to work with the toolbar icons or a menu?19:15
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qwazixmal, it's not, it's a bad design and that's why, since it was never implemented we were discussing of changing it to something more useful19:41
SamTelegram[m]I'll be back home on Sunday19:41
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