Tuesday, 2018-09-25

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T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> Today I will try to pick up the open questions about the Lipstick implementation. … It's a messy puzzle. We are investing months now to evaluate Sailfish OS and Nemo Mobile as platform for an iOS and Android alternative.  … For a customization of the system UX, the discussions and the07:13
T4Glacier project itself confirm, that Lipstick is the apropriate platform component to implement our csutomization requirements.  … Unfortunately, there is almost no documentation and no avalable resources. We asked several communities and local and off shore development companies for ressources with skills for Sailfish OS respectively Nemo Mobile s07:13
T4kills with no success.07:13
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> I'll try to summarize the open questions:07:13
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> 1. How can Glacier UX be build and deployed? … 1.1. How does the platform sdk be prepared?07:15
r0kk3rzMarc == Leif_Ericsson?07:33
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> 1. How can Glacier UX be build and deployed? … 1.1. How does the platform sdk needs to be prepared? … 1.2. Which terminal commands has to be executed? … 1.3. How can the build and deployment process be automized? … 2. How can Lipstick be impemented, build and deployed in general? … 2.107:34
T4. Is a Lipstick based artifact an app, a library or a service? … 2.1. What tells the target system to use the artifact as a system UI? … 2.1. Which project files must contain with information?  … 2.1.1 What needs to be added to the pro file for the purpose? … 2.1.2 What needs to be added to the spec file the the purpose? … 2.1.3 What needs to be ad07:34
T4ded to the essential service file? … 3. Where is a documentation of Lipstick? … 3.1. How can a documentation eventually created from the source?07:34
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @r0kk3rz [Marc == Leif_Ericsson?], Same company, same project07:35
r0kk3rzah ok07:37
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> I admit that the chat may not be the right place for clarifying these questions. But the questions show the need for documentation and resources we are looking for.07:37
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> The better the documentation and the availability of resources, the more likely there is a chance that an alternative to Android and iOS will find a broad base and be commercially taken up by businesses for a broad audience.07:40
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> We are grateful for any advice: freelancers, companies or online documentation. We are also willing to host a boot camp or similar that interested newcomers, Mer and Nemo Mobile can learn.07:42
r0kk3rzwe went through a lot of this stuff yesterday07:42
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> [Edit] We are grateful for any advice: freelancers, companies or online documentation. We are also willing to host a boot camp or similar that interested newcomers can learn Mer and Nemo Mobile development.07:42
r0kk3rzyou may have invested months, but if you want to build a product with this stuff you'll need to invest years07:44
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @r0kk3rz [we went through a lot of this stuff yesterday], It seems that the Nemo Mobile joint venture consists of a few very experienced developers. We experience a lot of encouraging, helpfulness here and in other chats. The clues, however, seem like a puzzle to me.07:45
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @r0kk3rz [you may have invested months, but if you want …], Man years. Sure.07:45
r0kk3rzactual years07:45
r0kk3rznot man years07:46
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> We start with a realistic scope. The first step is to select a stable, mature platform. Sailfish/Nemo and UBPorts is on our shortlist. Next step is to find a way for modification. We make progress in some essentual stuff, but the convergence use case makes headache. The introduced wind07:51
T4owed apps in Glacier are promising.07:51
r0kk3rzubports already has convergence07:52
r0kk3rzi saw it working like, 3 years ago07:53
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> Yes, we have conference call with the board soon. Maybe we will choose this platform, although we prefer the clear minimalistic design of Sailfish.07:56
r0kk3rzthen you need an agreement with jolla07:57
T4<akaWolf> Sfos is closed source07:57
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> Indeed, we would need an agreement. But first we need a successful poc before, because the agreement is a significant investment.07:58
r0kk3rzyou should really pay jolla to come up with the proof of concept07:59
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @akaWolf [Sfos is closed source], Mainly the Lipstick implementation layer and the basic apps. The advantage would be professional support, that would speed up the product development. They are experienced in hardware adaption. Even with high daily rates of Jolla it will be less expens08:00
T4ive, thant doing this on our own.08:00
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @akaWolf [Sfos is closed source], [Edit] Mainly the Lipstick implementation layer and the basic apps. The advantage would be professional support, that would speed up the product development. They are experienced in hardware adaption. Even with high daily rates of Jolla it will be less08:01
T4 expensive, than doing this on our own.08:01
T4<akaWolf> You can pick Glacier08:01
T4<akaWolf> For me I decide to stop investigating time into sfos and take a look into nemo08:02
r0kk3rzglacier will require a lot of your own investment to get it up to silica standard08:02
T4<akaWolf> Ofc08:03
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @akaWolf [You can pick Glacier], This is indeed an option. But the Mer Wiki says, that the core apps are not stable for a commertial product, yet.08:03
T4<akaWolf> I think this is cheaper08:03
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> We may mix ist up. We start with Sailfish OS and migrate to Nemo Mobile in long term roadmap.08:04
T4<akaWolf> Yeah08:06
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> @akaWolf [I think this is cheaper], The license costs are very fair. The point is, where we can find skilled developers.08:06
r0kk3rz'not stable for commercial product' is a huge understatement08:07
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> A learning curve of internal developers with a different background can be very expensive.08:07
T4<akaWolf> Hm, you can try to get @neochapay08:07
r0kk3rzneochapay works for OMP08:07
T4<akaWolf> He is not a slave08:08
T4<akaWolf> :)08:08
r0kk3rzwho said he was?08:09
T4<akaWolf> I would work at Nemo project...08:10
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> No matched at Gulp.de for Nemo Mobile or Sailfish08:10
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> [Edit] No matches at Gulp.de for Nemo Mobile or Sailfish for example.08:11
r0kk3rzthats unsurprising08:11
T4<akaWolf> Yeah08:11
r0kk3rzeveryone with experience in this stuff is usually working for Jolla or OMP, or gainfully employed elsewhere08:19
r0kk3rzhowever, these guys are ex-jolla and run their own consulting company - https://crimson.no/08:21
r0kk3rzrobin was one of the original people who developed lipstick08:21
T4<akaWolf> Looks interesting08:23
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> We already asked Basyskom and Crimson for resources. Unfortunaly Robin is fully booked, but he will look for resources for us.08:23
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> [Edit] We already asked Basyskom and Crimson for resources. Unfortunaly Robin is fully booked, but he will look for resources for us. We also asked Jolla.08:24
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> It would be no problem for me or a colleague of mine to fly for a hands on kickoff to Finnland. We are almost neighbours.08:27
r0kk3rz*sigh* telegram, whhy you so annoying08:28
T4<akaWolf> ?08:29
T4<akaWolf> How many people do you need?08:29
kimmoliPlease, do not edit telegram posts. Do not use reply, unless replying to some ancient message. And fix your username:  https://telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me08:33
r0kk3rzthanks kimmoli08:34
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> I'm very sorry for violating the Telegram guidelines. I won't reply any more. What's wrong with my user name? I can't see any violation of the guidelines.08:37
r0kk3rz@Marc you havent set a username08:37
tbrwhat we see coming from you:08:37
tbr08:37:09<+T4> <Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> I'm very sorry for violating the Telegram guidelines. I won't reply any more. What's wrong with my user name? I can't see any violation of the guidelines.08:37
T4<Marc (MISSING @USERNAME! telegram.org/faq#usernames-and-t-me)> Oha. I thought Marc Aurel is my username08:38
T4<akaWolf> Hah08:38
T4<akaWolf> Just set and nvm08:38
T4<m_aurel> I'm sorry for that. I didn't notice, that a username was missing.08:43
T4<m_aurel> Do I have username now?08:43
r0kk3rzmuch better08:44
T4<locusf> yes08:44
T4<m_aurel> How many popele we need, depends on what we can outsource, for example the hardware adaption and preferable the platform development and maintenance. So we can focus on high level features. For the poc we need at least one additional resource this year.08:47
T4<m_aurel> Early next year we need more resources for the next stage.08:47
T4<akaWolf> One man doesnt look too imposdible08:51
T4<akaWolf> @locusf , can you explain me why you argue with my proposal about switching home screen?08:52
r0kk3rzimo you'll need more than one person08:53
r0kk3rzgetting multiscreen support into lipstick is a major task on its own08:53
r0kk3rzand thats not getting into anything in the ux layer08:54
T4<locusf> @akaWolf [@locusf , can you explain me why you argue wit …], not right now, maybe later08:54
T4<akaWolf> Okay08:54
T4<m_aurel> Indeed. It shouldn't be. I'll check further keywords at Gulp. Maybe we ask Hays, but they are extremely expensive.08:54
T4<akaWolf> You need mult screen to proof?08:55
r0kk3rz@akaWolf: you would consider a convergence POC without external display support to be sufficient?08:56
T4<m_aurel> Advantageously, a second screen should be supported. That seems to be possible, according to Jolla. In principle, to show that it is possible to adapt the system to an external monitor, synchronized output would be sufficient. It does not have to be an external monitor, but can also be an external device via USB OTG like the Superbook fro09:12
T4m Sentio.09:12
Leif_EriksonHi, I have installed the lipstick developer package on the sdk's build engine successfully.13:12
Leif_EriksonThen I have checked out the developer branch of Glacier UX.13:12
Leif_EriksonIf if build the project, I get the following error:13:12
Leif_EriksonProject ERROR: nemodevicelock development package not found13:12
Leif_EriksonDo have to install this package either on the build engine with the platform sdk?13:13
Leif_EriksonWhat is the command? sb2 -t $VENDOR-$DEVICE-$PORT_ARCH -R -m sdk-install zypper in nemodevicelock-development?13:14
Leif_EriksonIt seems, that not everything is defined in the .spec file of the project?13:14
malmaybe you should add dependency repo to the target, sb2 -t $VENDOR-$DEVICE-$PORT_ARCH -R -m sdk-install ssu ar some_alias some_url13:17
Leif_EriksonSo "some_alias" would be any name like "glacier-repo" and "some_url" the url of a required git repository for nemodevicelock development package?13:25
malthat packages should be available in official jolla repos13:40
malso are you now building in platform sdk or the application sdk?13:42
malwhat do you mean by build engine?13:42
Leif_EriksonThe build engine of the app sdk contains the full platform sdk.14:06
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