10:03:01 #startmeeting SailfishOS, open source, collaboration: 2014-07-22T10:00 UTC 10:03:01 Meeting started Tue Jul 22 10:03:01 2014 UTC. The chair is tbr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings. 10:03:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 10:03:01 #info Welcome to another SailfishOS OSS and collaboration meeting 10:03:34 today's topics: 10:03:37 * Intro (5 min) 10:03:37 * "Down-streaming" from Jolla repos to nemomobile - tortoisedoc (15 min) 10:03:37 * New API request: ambience - SK (20 min) 10:03:37 * General discussion / informal meetup - open (15 min) 10:03:37 * Wrap up and next meeting (5 min) 10:03:59 #topic Brief introductions (5 min), prefix your information with #info 10:04:09 #info Thomas B. Rücker, community member 10:04:20 #info Lucien XU, community member and SFOS dev 10:04:21 #info David Greaves: Sailor and Mer guy 10:04:24 #info Kimmo Lindholm, community member, tohs dev 10:04:28 #info Iekku Pylkk�, sailor + community 10:04:53 #info tortoisedoc: request channel for "downstreaming" of features from jolla-"private" to nemomobile 10:04:59 lbt: can you op me please? 10:05:01 #info Eric Le Roux, sailor and TJC Bugzilla admin 10:05:03 #info Carol Chen, Jolla sailor + community member 10:05:06 #info Simonas Leleiva, community and hadk sailor 10:05:09 #info martin brook, community member 10:05:14 #info Vesa-Matti Hartikainen, Sailor 10:05:15 #info tortoisedoc, sailfishos devver 10:05:15 #info Steph Gosling, community member 10:05:26 #info tortoisedoc, Tone Kastlunger sailfishos devver 10:05:27 #info Oleg, opensource developer 10:05:32 #info Siteshwar, community member 10:05:39 lets see if i can get it right this time :D 10:06:29 ok, I'll close introductions now 10:06:38 #info Pami Ketolainen Bugzilla and TJC developer at Jolla 10:07:01 #topic "Down-streaming" from Jolla repos to nemomobile - tortoisedoc (15 min) 10:07:08 #info Karoliina Poiksalo, office assistant at Jolla Tampere office 10:07:10 tortoisedoc__: floor is yours 10:07:19 ok, thank you for accepting my topic first of all 10:07:29 it is my first time around here 10:07:54 tortoisedoc__: you're welcome and welcome :) 10:08:10 :) 10:08:13 in short 10:08:42 the idea is basically to investigate possibility to establish a communication channel between dev community & jolla for requesting features currently exclusive to Jolla to be made available to all devs (in nemomobile) 10:09:01 where possibility == interest from Jolla 10:09:15 #info Artem app developer. Used setAmbiance API 10:09:37 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/49787/jolla-add-request-channel-for-jolla-exclusive-functionality-to-be-made-available-to-all-devs/ 10:09:38 tortoisedoc__: please give some examples 10:09:42 tortoisedoc__: do you have any specifics in mind? 10:09:59 thanks cybette 10:10:16 stephg: one specific is the topic I want to cover: ambience API 10:10:29 SK_work , stephg : yes, for example notifications for when event screen visibility status changes 10:10:52 i know this is implemented in jolla-lipstick, but it is currently not available in nemo lipsticj 10:10:54 I'm also interest in accounts API 10:10:56 *lipstick 10:11:12 tortoisedoc__: it's because events is not a nemo functionality: it's just a "window" 10:11:27 arent they supposed to give access to more APIs when those become stable? 10:11:33 the accounts framework itself is open source IIRC, the particular plugins might not 10:11:46 SK_work : indeed, but event view is a feature of Sailfishos 10:11:54 or are you talking about UI functionality only? 10:11:55 indeed 10:11:59 hi guys 10:12:03 sorry for late 10:12:12 tbr: the accounts framework is opened indeed, it's even "easy" to make it work 10:12:25 however, it's not documented, needing to read the qml code etc 10:12:28 so in that sense, since it seems there is some framework for a lipstick api 10:12:33 it might be possible 10:13:17 (not sure tho) to publish certain types of currently jolla-lipstick functionalities in nemomobile 10:13:31 tortoisedoc__: don't think that this has it's place 10:13:34 for community developers to take better advantage of the feature 10:13:36 that's the problem 10:13:45 but provide APIs, that could be nice 10:13:51 like import com.jolla.lipstick 1.0 10:13:59 SK_work : ye exactly 10:14:31 currently import com.jolla.lipstick does not work ;P 10:14:49 tortoisedoc__: it's not made for this actually 10:14:51 (IIRC) 10:15:07 yes it is just a practical example 10:15:32 tortoisedoc__: so in short, youw ant discussions to be done with sailors to have more SFOS "API" exported 10:15:49 the basic idea of downsreaming features to nemomobile is what would matter 10:15:55 yes 10:16:30 tortoisedoc__: some downstream cannot happen: like opening some Jolla lipstick API will not happen if the homescreen is closed 10:16:48 for example, for quickbar currently hiding / showing relies on dbus 10:16:55 so wonder if you can ever downstream to nemomobile 10:17:32 but if lipstick would offer an input control interface, it would be possible to tune it more finely 10:17:38 is this something that could be done in t.j.c using the wiki feature to create a bullet list of apis, scope/status/issues ? 10:17:42 what do sailors think about this actually, they remain quite silent :) 10:17:56 lbt: +1 10:18:01 +1 10:18:01 SK_work : you not a sailor?;P 10:18:25 tortoisedoc__: :P 10:18:26 * lbt is not familiar with specific apis and issues - but the general problem seems manageable - the question is how 10:19:31 I'd suggest a per-api template with those subheadings (and maybe dependencies and lang (c++/qml) and more) 10:19:34 I think TJC is good for listing as lbt mentioned, and this community irc meeting for discussion for specific cases whether it's possible and how to do it 10:19:42 cybette: +1 10:19:50 cybette: +1 10:19:51 cybette :+1 10:19:58 + generic discussions on IRC or better, ML ? 10:20:00 lbt: +1 10:20:01 +1 10:20:07 3min left 10:20:25 I think this should land on ML, so that some devs are aware that other devs discuss about one component API, and that they can participate 10:20:34 SK_work, +1 10:20:43 TJC wiki for logging an arch + what's done, being done etc. 10:20:50 SK_work: generic discussion on ML is better, +1 10:20:52 SK_work : definitely + 10:21:17 +1 10:21:44 As it is targeted at devs, ml is definitely a must 10:21:51 the trinity of channels: IRC, ML, Web 10:21:59 tbr: +1 10:22:11 maybe ml for dev -> jolla communication 10:22:28 so dropping TJC ? (ML is good for discussing, but a wiki can help) 10:22:43 ? 10:23:08 not dropping - just directing discussion to ML - summary and status in tjc wiki 10:23:14 lbt: ok :) 10:23:16 we can use each tool for their strength. TJC's wiki can certainly help to keep things organized and provide good overview of status 10:23:19 in fact the tjc wiki can say just that 10:23:31 a wiki, and discussions on ML 10:23:33 perfect :) 10:23:34 LGTM 10:23:34 can we cut over to the next topic then? 10:23:36 yep 10:23:41 #topic New API request: ambience - SK (20 min) 10:23:47 thanks! 10:23:48 SK_work: floor is yours 10:24:13 I was unaware of tortoisedoc__ 's proposition, but this topic fits perfectly well following his 10:24:15 hmm nothing info'd in previous topic, oh well 10:24:38 tbr: #undo ? 10:24:39 * tbr might just mess with the log afterwards 10:24:50 lbt: will just add something later manually 10:24:55 ok 10:24:58 Actually, I would just like to discuss about how to interact with Ambience as dev point of view. 10:25:31 ie: change ambience, select an ambience, list ambience, change an ambience 10:25:55 currelty, you have ambienced that provides minimal dbus API (change ambience, nothing more), and a db that stores ambiences. 10:26:07 however, this db is privileged, locking apps out. 10:26:46 There is also a QML module (iirc), but unavailable for harbour, and for non-privileged apps 10:27:31 I would like to know why Ambience is privileged, and if nothing can be done about this, maybe Jolla could consider extending ambienced DBus API, to give devs more freedom ? 10:27:55 SK_work: indeed this is another very good example 10:28:05 ok - so this feels like a great test case 10:28:22 ambiences come with the "expensive" coloured ToHs 10:28:24 it shows the template needs a proposal section too :) 10:28:36 tbr: well - they switch with them 10:28:37 Also AFAIK there is no way to get notification on when createAmbience is completed. I just start timer and pray 10:28:41 maybe that was a reason for making this initially priviledged? 10:28:52 SK_work, just a guess, but priviliged may be because of linkage with TOHs. 10:28:52 lbt: they also get installed by them 10:28:57 yes they do 10:28:59 tbr: there might, and I'm not really agains this 10:29:08 the fact is that privileges locks devs out. 10:29:13 but they also get created by the gallery plugin 10:29:36 same with setAmbience - there seems to be no way to get a completion notification/status 10:29:40 * lbt is probably less knowledgable about api than you guys btw 10:30:14 lbt: basically API is just undocumented and devs are running around Dbus with the sniffing dogs - that's it :) 10:30:22 hehe 10:30:41 artemma : nemomobile is good source 10:30:42 that was my case at least 10:30:42 w00f 10:30:49 artemma: same 10:31:04 so lets create this wiki apis doc and add ambience api to it - that can include the 'needed' section too 10:31:07 for ambience, it's pretty hard to do it well 10:31:09 cool 10:31:13 so maybe a case for ML discussion ? 10:31:30 feel free to combine both topics and #info appropriately now 10:31:30 the guy who does ambience is on hols atm (of course!) 10:31:31 I slightly remember that I may have checked sources and don't remember any completion notifications there. Maybe jolla apps don't care to track it 10:31:59 artemma: no notif 10:32:04 I remember too 10:32:25 #info API comms will be done in t.j.c and ML using the wiki feature to create a bullet list of apis, scope/status/issues 10:33:01 can we also have #action as to who does what, so there's no ambiguity :) 10:33:06 #action discuss Ambience API on ML, and add the DBus API organization on TJC wiki 10:33:16 #info suggest a per-api template with those subheadings (and maybe dependencies, lang (c++/qml), proposed api changes and more) 10:33:35 #info direct discussions to ML - summary and status in tjc wiki 10:33:55 #info The ambience API will be a test-case 10:33:55 Waht is the general approach about API levels: DBus -> cpp -> qml module ? 10:34:04 #action discuss feasibility for api with additional events generated by lipstick 10:34:11 so dbus has to stabilize first before its opened for qml? 10:34:36 it would also help making the API introspectable directly on dbus 10:34:46 * lbt thinks we need to figure out how to handle api versioning sooner rather than later :/ 10:35:06 artemma: IMO DBus first: it can be changed / unstable, because it don't crash. Only runtime failure 10:35:09 that are easy to catch 10:35:21 then QML, because of no problem of BC and all this kind of fuss 10:35:23 * tbr is glad to see that two community members are taking the responsibility to drive the #action s 10:35:27 and finally C++ imo 10:35:58 QML seems like a good place for handling system ressources (via plugins) 10:36:07 :) 10:36:14 QML is quite good at many things 10:36:39 good good :) 10:37:19 dir 10:37:23 undo 10:38:23 kimmoli: :D 10:38:30 ls 10:38:34 oops 10:38:35 tbr: maybe move to the last part ? 10:38:36 sorry 10:38:50 can we close the topic then? 10:38:59 tbr: I guess yess 10:39:00 yes 10:39:12 any last info? 10:39:16 closing in 15s 10:39:40 #topic General discussion / informal meetup - open (15 min) 10:40:00 the floor is now open for general discussion and updates 10:40:18 OK i have a question. Has there been any progress in localization and keyboards? 10:40:37 ' 10:40:38 ' 10:40:42 what's cooking in jolla (on a small summer holiday flame), any infos from the sailors? 10:40:43 'ä''ä' 10:40:44 m 10:40:57 tortoisedoc__: cat on keyboard? 10:41:00 tortoisedoc__: cat took your keyboarde? 10:41:07 tbw : no my two years old :P 10:41:22 and that was supposed to be tbr :D 10:41:22 on #JollaMobile we discussed with entil about some UI fixes. This lead to me talking about patchmanager obviously. But maintaining aptches is bad and takes time. So I was wondering about upstreaming contributions 10:41:31 :) 10:41:47 any news about paid app support in store? and download stats? :P 10:41:56 can community submit some ui changes that designers can review ? 10:41:58 tortoisedoc__: +1 too 10:42:12 * artemma wonders about the jolla sales numbers 10:42:19 artemma: no change to get it 10:42:22 artemma, I've giveup 10:42:28 SK_work: oh yes. i loath the visuals of the button element 10:42:43 or maybe somewhat accurate app download coutners? 10:42:52 artemma : +1 10:42:56 Paid apps after summer AFAIK. 10:43:07 what I am really interested in is how close we are to potential paid app bix, even if we are talking abt icecream money 10:43:15 biz* 10:43:25 iekku: do you confirms NSA-rep ? 10:43:35 thats 10:43:40 quite nice :) 10:43:43 in-app sales and subscriptions and possibility for try-before-you-buy too - for the same reason 10:43:44 (ater summer release I mean9 10:44:23 * lbt is aware that many sailors are on holiday and some questions need thinking about. I propose we select some of these for a response? 10:44:42 let's #info all these questions/concerns so they can be addressed after summer holidays. many sailors are not around to respond or work on stuff right now. 10:44:51 3rd party developers biz as some next topic maybe? 10:44:58 Doesn't have to be exactly paid apps 10:45:00 also - just to make sure we don't end up with a a barrage - lets limit the numbe of Qs ? 10:45:05 I'm sorry if this has been asked over and over -- but I keep on finding conflicting information. are there any plans to open source the OS? 10:45:12 cybette, i thinks is an unsefull question ... how to manage flame ... 10:45:29 i'm looking communities for a while ... 10:45:40 GranPC_: it goes component by component, from what we can see 10:45:46 there are too many conflicts arround jolla/SailfishOs 10:45:48 GranPC_: the intentions seem to be there 10:45:56 GranPC_ this is the plan but there is nothing set to stone yet. Some things have changed and thats why you get conflicting info 10:46:13 sometimes for enthusiast / Ambassadors / User is very difficult 10:46:16 so it's likely to happen. awesome 10:46:18 #info paid apps support 10:46:24 endorse jolla 10:46:26 thanks, this is probably the clearest response I have ever seen to this 10:46:30 #info download stats 10:46:33 dr_gogeta86: we did setup a moderator thing for this - maybe we need a way for you to report concerns to them ? 10:46:41 dr_gogeta86: certainly, it's an ongoing issue. we try to handle case-by-case as each is different 10:46:52 cybette, and lbt 10:47:00 GranPC_: I believe I was seeing official statement on that certain OS parts are going to be closed. I think there is some movement to decrease a number of such parts over time 10:47:01 is more wide spectrum problem 10:47:11 GranPC_: I'd recommend to read previous meeting transcripts. The process of how things are open sourced was described in a meeting IIRC. 10:47:13 tortoisedoc__: I think the paid app thing deserves a thought-out reply 10:47:19 outside irc/ml/talk.maemo/twitter and now a bit of xda 10:47:19 tbr: where can I find those? 10:47:20 BTW does jolla has any stats about contributions on apps that have been opened ie. browser?? 10:47:29 vesku? 10:47:30 lbt: more details? 10:47:32 GranPC_: links posted by the bot at the end 10:47:32 the whole vision is 10:47:38 alrighty, thanks 10:47:40 and on mailing list 10:47:47 they are a small group with an old idea 10:47:48 NSA-rep: github 10:47:53 NSA-rep: go read commit log ? :) 10:47:56 look to ubuntu touch and firefoxOs 10:47:57 NSA-rep, for browser: https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/graphs/contributors 10:48:00 #info biz for 3rd party devs. Doesn't have to be exactly paid apps: subscriptions, in-app purchases, try-before-you-buy, jolla's contensts with prizes, match-making between clients and jolla-oriented devs 10:48:05 tortoisedoc__: paid apps are permitted - but the store has no inbuilt mechanism which makes it hard to use them 10:48:20 GranPC_: piratepad.net/SailfishOSSMeetings 10:48:20 btw: please be more wordy in your #info so that it is clear without context what you meant 10:48:35 tortoisedoc__: afaik we have (afaik) no mechanism to test paid apps 10:48:38 lbt : thanks for clarification 10:48:47 may I now 10:48:48 ? 10:48:50 so I think this question should be responsed too 10:49:24 dr_gogeta86: yeah - I was interleaving with tortoisedoc__ (he did ask first :) ) 10:49:29 sorry 10:49:40 np - this part is always hectic 10:49:54 lbt IMHO 10:50:01 cybette is there a reason we didn't get the usual "next release plan" after update 8? i suspect bijall is on vacation. 10:50:11 is the great / deal / problem 10:50:13 NSA-rep: vacation I think 10:50:21 of this calling it ecosystem 10:50:31 cybette: so I suggest we #action a paid-apps reply saying what jolla's position is atm and any plans we can currently share 10:50:46 NSA-rep: IIRC U9 is early september, so we might see something once people come back from vacations? 10:50:56 need to run 10:50:56 NSA-rep: many sailors are, so there's no planning this month. we will share the release plan after our planning session at beginning of next month 10:50:58 thanks guys! 10:51:05 very constructive! 10:51:11 ha, just as expected :) 10:51:12 thanks cyb 10:51:25 lbt: please do 10:51:39 so why lacks of visibility 10:51:52 #action jolla will provide a paid-apps reply saying what jolla's position is atm and any plans we can currently share 10:52:02 apart pitch days when they are release or porting guides ? 10:52:41 any ETA on SDL in Harbour? 10:52:49 thp: ^ 10:54:11 GranPC_: just be aware that jolla hasn't committed to open-source everything - we do have an oss policy https://together.jolla.com/question/3014/clarification-of-open-source-policy/#post-id-6768 10:54:18 lbt: yup, just saw that 10:54:25 so UI is gonna be closed source for now. aw :( 10:54:41 smoku_: use the ^^^ api discussion approach for SDL 10:55:04 ok, let's gently segway into the closing 5min 10:55:14 GranPC_: you are never sure 10:55:20 dr_gogeta86: we do our best to share and provide visibility when possible, however we are not able to be everywhere all at once 10:55:23 last chance to #info 10:55:36 * lbt sees only one deferred question ... OK ? 10:55:52 cybette, i'm too scared ... I ever say i did a legacy choice 10:55:57 #topic Wrap up and next meeting (5 min) 10:56:13 so, next meeting in 2 weeks again, I guess? 10:56:13 there are too much hope for other things 10:56:15 regarding date of next meeting 10:56:16 which time of day? 10:56:26 hopefully late night 10:56:28 we have iteration planning on aug 5 10:56:30 lbt: it's not exactly about creating/documenting new API - SDL API is there, and is stable 10:56:50 dr_gogeta86: that is a very relative thing with everyone being scattered all over the globe 10:56:57 I think 'available' is part of the api thing 10:57:03 smoku_: but is it available? ;) 10:57:26 so many sailors won't be availaboe on Aug 5 (meetings, traveling). 10:57:30 two weeks sounds good 10:57:30 I propose Aug 12 for next meeting 10:57:37 cybette: +1 10:57:43 (not that I'm here for that either) 10:57:44 cybette: +1 10:57:51 +1 10:57:51 WFM 10:57:53 also by then we should have better estimates for some of the topics and planning 10:57:57 sorry have been away 10:58:01 even bettter 10:58:03 in other meeting 10:58:07 :-D 10:58:13 and wa about to say same than cybette 10:58:16 cybette: make sure to review meeting notes before the planning week 10:58:31 so, time of day, when? 10:58:33 tbr: yes, thanks :) 10:59:19 tbr, isn't it 15 utc turn? 10:59:25 by the current rotation, next one will be 15 UTC. 10:59:37 cybette: if we keep oscillating, then yes 11:00:13 let's keep this rotation for now until we get complaints ;) 11:00:18 is that ok with people? 11:00:24 ok for me 11:00:33 #info next community meeting 2014-08-12T15:00z 11:00:41 :) 11:00:44 * iekku is on vacation then, can't promise to join 11:00:56 might even be away from internet :o 11:00:57 iekku: good vacation :):) 11:01:10 #action jolla to provide updates during that meeting from previous weeks planning meeting and get together 11:01:21 ok, I'll be closing now, any last remarks? 11:01:39 chair? 11:01:53 any volunteers to chair next meeting? 11:02:08 good vacation iekku 11:02:08 I don't mind doing that, but maybe someone else wants to... 11:02:39 definitely not a chair 11:02:48 * tbr sits on the table 11:03:01 poof - it vanishes ... tbr ends up on his ass 11:03:04 mkay we can still discuss this later 11:03:07 *blomp* 11:03:12 #endmeeting