14:30:12 #startmeeting SailfishOS, open source, collaboration: 17-Dec @ 14:30 UTC 14:30:12 Meeting started Thu Dec 17 14:30:12 2015 UTC. The chair is cybette. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings. 14:30:12 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 14:30:17 #info Welcome to another week of SailfishOS OSS and collaboration meeting 14:30:23 #info Meeting info and agenda: http://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2015-December/006817.html 14:30:28 I'm the meeting chair for today and will be keeping time and order. Please behave and show mutual respect, and let's have a productive discussion! 14:30:33 We also have a full agenda today so I will be keeping very strict time. Kindly cooperate and stay on topic. 14:30:38 #topic Brief introductions (5 min), prefix your information with #info 14:30:44 #info Andrey Kozhevnikov, community coderus 14:30:45 #info Kimmo Lindholm, Community ..... 14:30:51 #info Christophe Chapuis, Community member 14:30:57 #info Rüdiger Schiller, Maemo Community e.V. Board 14:30:57 #info Carol Chen, community member, hatless meeting chair today 14:30:57 #info Lucien Xu community SfietKonstantinW 14:30:57 #info Fabio Isgrò, community ... 14:31:00 #info Eugenio Paolantonio, community member 14:31:00 #info Urja Rannikko, community 14:31:00 #info Cedric Heintz, community member 14:31:06 #info Iekku Pylkk�, community member 14:31:06 #info Steph Gosling, community 14:31:08 #info François, Community 14:31:08 #info pavi community member 14:31:10 # Dirk van Leersum, community 14:31:11 #info Claudio Campeggi, community member 14:31:19 #info Dirk van Leersum, community 14:31:25 hello veskuh_ ! 14:31:29 #info Tommi Keisala, community 14:31:31 #info Tatu, community & low on battery 14:31:33 #info Jakub Kozisek, community member 14:31:33 #info Eetu Kahelin, community 14:31:40 #info Lewis Rockliffe, community 14:31:42 #info John Pietrzak, community member 14:31:44 #info fravaccaro, community 14:32:04 #info Fellfrosch, community 14:32:13 #info Vesa-Matti Hartikainen, SW Program manager, Jolla 14:32:22 #info Lim Yuen Hoe, community 14:32:37 tathhu: it is bad for your lithiums 14:32:37 #info Julius-Paul Jann, community 14:32:37 #info Raine M�kel�inen, SW Engineer, Jolla 14:32:40 #info Juhani Lassila, Head of Communications, Jolla 14:32:44 hi AnttiSaarnio ! 14:32:49 #info Pami Ketolainen, backend dev @ Jolla 14:32:50 I'm at work, pls be patient as I type on jphone and doing stuff 14:32:56 Hello Everybody! 14:33:02 #info ChrisNg, community fans~ 14:33:03 AnttiSaarnio: hello 14:33:06 hello AnttiSaarnio :-) 14:33:07 hello! 14:33:09 Hi o/ 14:33:10 #info Chris Peake, customer care @ Jolla 14:33:11 jooo 14:33:12 hi AnttiSaarnio 14:33:14 Hi AnttiSaarnio 14:33:15 party has started! 14:33:16 hello 14:33:18 o/ 14:33:23 Hello Antti! 14:33:23 #info tortoisedoc Developer & community supporter 14:33:31 AnttiSaarnio: nice to see you here 14:33:33 Hello Antti! 14:33:34 Cheers! 14:33:36 #info Martin Kolman, community member, modRana developer 14:33:41 #info Chris Ng, community fans~ 14:33:56 Hello to Antti, but also to everyone else, you are all beautiful peoplez 14:34:08 so much luvv wow 14:34:10 AnttiSaarnio: we'll have couple more minutes of introductions, and then we'll get to topic :) 14:34:10 hello dirkvl ;-) 14:34:18 #info Carmen Fdez. 14:34:20 # info Andrew Zhilin, community member, TOHKBD and stuff 14:34:29 ´stuff´ 14:34:30 wazd: no spaces 14:34:33 #info Andrew Zhilin, community member, TOHKBD and stuff 14:34:34 tohkbd <3 14:34:38 wow, so much peoples today, cheers everyone :) 14:34:40 Hello all, I can feel the Wave~ 14:34:49 hi all! 14:34:55 nice to see so many sailors here today, as well as so many community members 14:34:59 #info Topias Vainio, jollafanclub telegram group founder 14:35:02 o/ 14:35:02 #info Peter Danek, community member 14:35:04 dirkvl: are you high ? :P 14:35:05 coderus, indeed 14:35:22 deserves an awesome soundtrack 14:35:23 High 5~ 14:35:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94dY-QxjDiE 14:35:27 daitheflu: he is always high 14:35:27 alright! let's get to the first topic (moving it up as mentioned before meeting) 14:35:32 nsuffys o/ 14:35:37 #topic Status update on the delivery of Jolla Tablets + general Jolla status - Antti Saarnio (10 min) 14:35:38 Antti brings all the boys to the yard 14:35:56 :) 14:35:57 hello 14:35:58 Hi all :) 14:36:18 AnttiSaarnio: please take the irc 'stage' and share with us current status :) 14:36:32 Ok, Thank you. 14:36:45 And thanks for inviting me here 14:36:53 #info Joshua Strobl, community 14:37:49 cue suspensefull music 14:37:53 I have quite good news, some of those I can share today, but as we need to inform media and community and customers on equal bases, most of the information will come tomorrow 14:38:18 AnttiSaarnio: can't wait.. 14:38:23 WoooHoooooo~!! :D 14:38:30 We are just preparing a blog update to be sent out tomorrow, where most of the new information will be 14:38:38 Great news!!! 14:38:39 That's already news :) 14:38:39 wait for it.. 14:38:45 Please share whatever you can , the community is waiting to hear something. 14:38:46 So here are the news :) 14:38:51 :D 14:38:52 *Jolla song in the background* :-D 14:39:01 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4GnHcFBDj4 14:39:03 Antti : can you share some details? 14:39:08 :) 14:39:09 (minor ones?) 14:39:10 PATIENCE YOU MUST HAVE my young padawan 14:39:14 pavi: he already got me with "good news" 14:39:19 everyone, let Antti speak :) 14:39:48 IRC needs something like "Antti is typing..." 14:39:49 The boat is sailing higher and higher :D 14:39:55 @cybette looks like there's some excitement in the air xD 14:40:00 We have received financing to continue Sailfish OS development from our investors. THIS means that reports about Jolla's death are greatly exaggerated :) 14:40:01 :) 14:40:08 :D 14:40:12 are the news good, or like super good news 14:40:13 ok 14:40:14 :D 14:40:16 super good news :) 14:40:18 Great :-D 14:40:19 WOW 14:40:19 AnttiSaarnio: congratulations 14:40:20 That is fantastic news 14:40:20 congrats :) 14:40:24 congrats 14:40:25 Now he has to kill us all so news doesn't spread too early :p 14:40:25 \o/ 14:40:28 awesome 14:40:29 AnttiSaarnio: by what time should we expect the news to be out? 14:40:29 Congrats!! 14:40:33 Niiiiiice <3 14:40:36 yipiee!!! 14:40:38 Niiiiiiiiiiiiiceeeeeeeeeeeee 14:40:39 wait .... 14:40:40 wuuhuu 14:40:40 That sounds AWESOME! Congrats! 14:40:44 Time to party ! 14:40:45 my christmas wish granded :D 14:40:47 isn't so awesome 14:40:48 This is amazing! 14:41:00 Success! 14:41:02 :D 14:41:03 Yes, it is truly Christmas :) 14:41:07 good work AnttiSaarnio! 14:41:08 :D 14:41:13 #info Jolla has received financing to continue the development of Sailfish OS. More info on the news will be shared in blog post tomorrow. Merry Christmas :) 14:41:22 good work everyone ! 14:41:32 AnttiSaarnio, will details about the financing be available in the blog tomorrow? 14:41:34 champagne ! 14:41:36 the rockstars gone .... 14:41:39 *snoopydance* 14:41:47 AnttiSaarnio: Congrats! Good job! 14:41:48 AnttiSaarnio : no funds to complete tablets yet? 14:41:52 cool! that should make many things much easier, at least in short to medium term 14:41:55 I'm bringing a big wine bottle to Finland right away :p 14:42:02 AnttiSaarnio: so, will the laid off staff be hired back full time? 14:42:11 AnttiSaarnio: Congrats! Does it affect tablets as well, or just SailfishOS? 14:42:19 AnttiSaarnio: could you comment on the delivery of Jolla Tablets, or it's too early in the process to say for now? 14:42:28 Its early to share details about the financing yet, and might be that we can't share all because of confidentiality matter. But we will share what we can 14:42:29 * nsuffys kiss all Jolla Team <3 14:42:29 c-la: some already got jobs elsewere 14:42:31 but lessons learned should still be applied - so that more crises like this can be avoided in the future 14:42:44 are there any strings attached to this financing, like a new strategic direction? 14:42:46 M4rtinK +1 14:42:52 ApBBB_: yeah but not all ;) 14:42:58 <3 to Jolla TEAM 14:42:59 M4rtinK: +1 14:43:04 3 more min 14:43:14 This financing troubles have of course impacted the company and we need to repair the ship, but most important thing is that Sailfish OS work will contineu 14:43:15 M4rtinK: +1 14:43:15 AnttiSaarnio: If it is possible, can you please clarify current satus for the Jolla Adventures program? 14:43:15 M4artinK: this 14:43:22 About tablets then 14:43:33 * tortoisedoc braces for impact 14:44:16 We only got the financing confirmed yesterday, and we are now busy analysing different alternatives what to do with TabletGate 14:44:29 TabletGate :D 14:44:56 * kimmoli plays smashup of loveboat and jaws 14:45:07 #info Regarding tablets, as the financing was only confirmed yesterday, Jolla is now analysing alternatives for "TabletGate" 14:45:15 Any comments on the alleged Jolla Tablets being available on third-party marketplaces? 14:45:16 and laid off staff? 14:45:17 We will have a board meeting after Christmas which is to decide between alternatives. 14:45:26 AnttiSaarnio: there were some reports of Jolla Tablets surfacing on TaoBao being sold with Android 4.4. Can you comment on this? 14:45:33 AnttiSaarnio : can you share the alternatives? 14:45:59 AnttiSaarnio: Could we know something about the Intex deal and when would the new phone come out in India? 14:46:00 (extending topic for 5 more minutes in this exceptional circumstance :)) 14:46:02 Or at least tell what's the worst case for tablet backers? 14:46:31 cybette, <3 14:47:16 tdb- I think worst case scenario is obvious 14:47:18 Options are: refunding or to continue with tablets, but then even more delays are to be expected. 14:47:25 AnttiSaarnio: was tablets produced and stuck on factory/warehouse? 14:47:31 more relevant, what are the chances for best-case scenario 14:47:39 Its a tough call. 14:47:50 AnttiSaarnio: recap of questions: Jolla tablets on taobao, what's the status of Jolla Adventures, what about the Intex deal? If you can answer some of them. 14:47:55 There are two kinds of Jolla tablet on Taobao, one is Android-pre-installed, one is Sailfish OS pre-installed. Any info about this? 14:47:56 but not imposible :) 14:48:01 Intex project will continue, we have confirmed that yesterday and there will be new Sailfish phone coming. 14:48:07 * tortoisedoc decided to skip doubles to type faster 14:48:09 yay 14:48:14 The salers all says it's from factory 14:48:17 hooray 14:48:17 w000000t 14:48:22 \O/ 14:48:22 perfect news! 14:48:24 yay :-) 14:48:25 #info Intex project will continue, there is confirmation yesterday that new Sailfish OS phone will be coming 14:48:30 ohai cybette 14:48:48 hai Myrtti :) 14:48:55 AnttiSaarnio: with this round ... how much will last ? 14:49:09 TylerTemp: android tablet is more likely black Aigo X86, sailfishos tablet should be confirmed first. 14:49:10 this thing happening here today is like an apple event in the jobs days in a way. at least feels somehow like this 14:49:15 Does it mean that Intex project was frozen for few weeks due to financing issues? So it will continue now, but with some delay to original plan? 14:49:21 yes, nothing to do with Jolla, but it seems that our production partner from China started selling some tables which were already produced and in their stock. We are discussing with them that they would stop sales immeadiately 14:49:23 2 more min, and we continue with other topics (6 more today) 14:49:42 Ok, I propose to officially rename AnttiSaarnio to Santa Saarnio 14:49:51 daitheflu, :D +1 14:49:59 AnttiSaarnio: you need to gain our trust 14:50:07 daitheflu +10 .D 14:50:08 tortoisedoc: What I'm interesting in is whether there's an option to deliberately screw the tablet backers. Of course new unforeseen issues may arise. 14:50:09 Is remarkable what are you doing ... 14:50:20 dr_gogeta86, he never lost mine 14:50:33 The financing is solid, but we are still very tight. Important is that big partners are starting to support us in China, India and Russia 14:50:37 #info Sales of Jolla tablets on taobao has nothing to do with Jolla. The production partner in China had stock and they stated selling them, Jolla is discussing with them to stop sales immediately. 14:50:41 +1 JoshStrobl 14:50:52 but honestly ... from the outside ... too many worg things happened 14:50:55 AnttiSaarnio: so, tablets really exists? Is there any option to pay extra to actually receive our tablets? 14:51:04 excellent news 14:51:16 AnttiSaarnio: given that the hardware partner is doing this without jollas permission, isnt there a legal problem with them selling jolla branded hardware? 14:51:17 AnttiSaarnio: please share any last thoughts in the next minute :) 14:51:21 AnttiSaarnio: thank you so much , Captain 14:51:22 coderus +1; id be willing to fund to get my favourite tablet :) 14:51:36 so is "premium shipping" and processing the VAT responses manually the thing were stuck on now? 14:51:36 r0kk3rz: When has that ever stopped the Chinese? 14:51:47 *wrong 14:51:53 probably what is being sold is from the preliminary batch and not a full batch of tablets 14:52:04 So final words: Force awakens :) 14:52:05 AnttiSaarnio, I assume part of the evaluation is determining if Tablet development would continue to push Jolla into the red? As it has been. 14:52:11 AnttiSaarnio: if tomorrow's blog post could contain some statement about open-sourcing status (has it been discussed, what timeline to expect, etc), that would be great. 14:52:23 everyone, for more detailed questions, let's open a topic on TJC after the meeting. and also wait for the blog post tomorrow 14:52:33 AnttiSaarnio: Thank you for accepting the communities invitation today, its much appreciated :) 14:52:39 #info Antti has spoken: The Force Awakens :) 14:52:40 thank you for all the informations AnttiSaarnio :-) 14:52:41 noting about jolla adventures? 14:52:47 r0kk3rz: +1 14:52:59 dirkvl: +1 14:53:02 AnttiSaarnio: Thanks a lot for the news. You have given us lot of information. We would wait for the blog post. 14:53:02 r0kk3rz, +1 14:53:05 thank you indeed 14:53:05 +1 r0kk3rz 14:53:14 +1 cybette and thank you AnttiSaarnio for answering the community's questions. Glad Jolla is continuining to practice one of it's core values of transparency. 14:53:16 We have to move on to other topics 14:53:16 thanks AnttiSaarnio for the words 14:53:21 AnttiSaarnio +1000 amazing news 14:53:28 AnttiSaarnio: THANK YOU for joining us and I hope we see you more in future meetings :) 14:53:30 this went a lot more smoothly than i thought, thanks Antti for sticking with the community 14:53:35 *continuing (fixing my spelling mistake :P) 14:53:40 \o/ 14:53:44 Thank you AnttiSaarnio 14:53:47 big thanks to AnttiSaarnio and let's move to next topic! 14:53:58 thank you Antti, at least you said much more than we can expect today 14:53:59 Thank you all for trusting and supporting us! 14:54:01 thanks again AnttiSaarnio :-) 14:54:03 #topic Bluetooth tethering re-introduction - c-la/moofang (10 min) 14:54:03 Thanks for the info AnttiSaarnio 14:54:07 cybette: good luck to keep the excitement at the same level :p 14:54:11 #info With 1.1.7 update bluetooth tethering got disabled, probably by mistake by an undetected regression. Discussion about the effort needed to restore it in next SFOS release. 14:54:16 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/107787/11728-bluetooth-tethering-via-connman-no-longer-supported/ 14:54:21 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/99680/bt-tethering-11724/ 14:54:23 AnttiSaarnio: Nothing specific about Jolla Adventures? It's kinda important for us 14:54:24 Tofe: haha, I know 14:54:32 any comment about it from a sailor? 14:54:44 Will come back to Jolla Adventures on other time, ok 14:54:47 i will try to spread jilla and sf2 even more at the university, thank you AnttiSaarnio 14:55:07 Jolla sailors, please refer to topic and comment if you can 14:55:38 cybette: I'm asking for a comment from a sailor about it 14:55:54 AnttiSaarnio: Thank you for joining and good luck! 14:56:03 Support for bluetooth got broken when fixing connman/BT bootup 14:56:10 @Antti can you confirm the Intex partnership is going on? 14:56:11 c-la: I know, I Was just repeating your request :) 14:56:18 fravaccaro see log 14:56:22 fravaccaro: topic has changed, please stay on topic 14:56:33 Due to the complexity of connman codebase no solution was discovered 14:56:39 ops sorry my pc completely stuck and had to reboot 14:56:58 even today's feature phones have bt tethering, I think it's important to have it on jolla even if few users use it 14:56:58 and unfortunately our developer specializing to that area is no longer working for Jolla 14:57:15 connman seems to be the biggest POS of SW ever written 14:57:31 ApBBB_ : you mean Piece of SW right 14:57:32 #info Support for bluetooth was broken when fixing connman/BT bootup, and due to the complexity of connman codebase, no solution has been found 14:57:33 so I don't have an estimate on the effort for fixing 14:57:38 ;) 14:57:54 any solution? maybe developing an spp with bluez libs to do bt tethering? 14:58:05 spp = app 14:58:21 fravaccaro: 19:48 <+AnttiSaarnio> Intex project will continue, we have confirmed that yesterday and there will be new Sailfish phone coming. 14:58:23 do I suspect it is because connman required bluez5? 14:58:27 hmm, so we're not sure exactly what's wrong with it 14:58:48 veskuh_: is it being tracked internally 14:58:50 thanks coderus :) 14:58:52 #info unfortunately the developer specializing in the area is no longer with Jolla, so there's no ETA for fix 14:59:16 is there an upstream project we can try to hit up to help us out? connman or mer or something 14:59:31 stephg: its tracked and I could paste the comment to somewhere to be seen 14:59:43 or yeah might it be practical to skip connman and build BT tethering separately? 14:59:45 hire me :P, actually no i dont know connman, but yeah i'd like to have bt tethering work (and i like bt) 14:59:55 well, let me guess what's up 15:00:02 Connman probably now requires bluez5 15:00:06 veskuh_ : is code opensource? 15:00:08 bluez5 on jolla is a shitload of work 15:00:16 http://pastebin.com/DmbpbNvx 15:00:27 so that's the last comment from the internal bug 15:00:53 veskuh_ if the code is out there, community could help in fixing it 15:00:54 #link Comment from internal bug http://pastebin.com/DmbpbNvx 15:01:09 3 more min 15:01:20 tortoisedoc: yeah, I haven't checked but I'm pretty sure all components related are OSS 15:01:37 yep, i think they are 15:01:37 veskuh_ ok but also available in mer / nemo repos? 15:01:58 tortoisedoc: there's liks to github mer in that comment 15:02:02 it seems to me that this needs to go through the normal procedures and should have been flagged in tjc or complained via the normal 'workflow' at least for sfos 15:02:20 https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/connman/tree/master/connman 15:02:21 so i guess yes (maybe no longer in github, but anyways in mer) 15:02:24 tortoisedoc: yes, all OSS mw we use is there 15:02:25 whether that workflow is still right and/or if there are people to do the work is another question 15:02:43 here you go tortoisedoc 15:02:44 now-a-days connman repo is: https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/connman 15:03:01 pastebin has old one 15:03:03 so perhaps it woul dbe great to get a pointer where to look into 15:03:23 tortoisedoc: https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/connman/blob/master/connman/src/technology.c 15:03:45 huh Intel corp 15:03:47 * tortoisedoc shrugs 15:03:50 #link https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/connman/blob/master/connman/src/technology.c 15:03:54 3vil! 3vil 15:04:00 please wrap up 15:04:20 #link https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/connman/tree/master/connman 15:04:31 ok next topic (also BT related) 15:04:37 what about using NetworkManager instead ? ;-) 15:04:40 so can we help somehow? 15:04:43 #topic Inclusion of Bluetooth LE libraries - c-la (10 min) 15:04:51 #info the needed libraries useful to use BTLE (QtBluetooth 5.4) have been backported to jolla kernel few months ago, some harbour apps have them included in their app. 15:04:57 #info Discussion about the possibility to have them included in SFOS. BTLE support is necessary to use some new wearables and headphones with Jolla. 15:05:04 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/64317/request-jolla-tablet-bluetooth-le-low-energy-software-support-wearable/ 15:05:10 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/8589/proper-bluetooth-le-support/ 15:05:38 any comment from a sailor? 15:05:40 veskuh_: thanks for the input on this (bt tethering) 15:05:45 So Bijjal's and Rainisto's comments on the first TJC link are still valid 15:06:16 We'd need to to do non-trivial amount of work, a lot of testing and possibly reapply bluetooth certification for existing devices 15:06:30 I don't see this happening in near term 15:06:31 M4rtinK : NetworkManager is glibc right?= 15:06:58 (or also eglibc?) 15:07:01 I wonder will it fix the issue on android layer as well? 15:07:11 #info bijjal and rainisto's comments in here are still valid https://together.jolla.com/question/64317/request-jolla-tablet-bluetooth-le-low-energy-software-support-wearable/ 15:07:13 veskuh_: well no because there are stable Qt 15:07:44 there weren't at that time 15:07:49 redoing certifications :/ 15:08:08 #info The amount of work is non-trivial, with a lot of testing and possibly reapplying bluetooth certification for existing devices. 15:09:03 c-la: yes we have cherrypicked some modules from newer Qt versions and at some point we do need to update Qt too. 15:09:25 is reapply for certification needed? you don't have to claim official btle support but just provide proper software environment to develop on 15:09:26 veskuh_: probably after 5.6? 15:09:33 5 more min 15:09:55 c-la: That has been my understanding that it is needed when upgrading BT stack 15:10:25 umm... but what is still stack and what isnt? 15:10:27 if you claim official support in the specs I guess 15:11:03 if you don't you don't need to imho 15:11:05 c-la: significant changes will likely invalidate the current certification 15:11:19 the thing is, there are many ways to do this 15:11:26 and at least one of them doesn't even touch the existing stack 15:11:31 this is an addon, an additional feature, isn't it? 15:11:37 no program on the stock firmware uses qtbluetooth fwiw 15:11:55 2 min left 15:12:10 if i read the intro properly, you dont need to touch bluez or the kernel to do this, so... 15:12:28 that is correct, and people have been backporting qtbl 5.4 on their own 15:12:40 urjaman: yep, my opinion is the same 15:12:53 basically 15:13:01 nothing from jolla actually uses qtbl 15:13:27 so backporting it from 5.4 won't break anything (TM) 15:13:36 (except 3rd party devs) 15:13:52 I suggest veskuh_ looks if new BT certification is actually needed an have this topic for next meeting 15:13:53 (and those outside harbour only, since qtbl is not allowed on harbour iirc) 15:14:11 Good points, sounds like possibility. We do need to study this more and obviously resources are still quite tight. 15:14:11 yeah, if people are actually doing this now - does it not break the certification already ? 15:14:24 eq. fox out of the bag 15:14:36 #info Need more study on this keeping in mind that resources are still quite tight 15:14:43 moving on!! 15:14:45 (I have to ponder however if these "limited resources" would be better spent on upgrading Qt) 15:14:47 !! 15:14:47 coderus: Error: "!" is not a valid command. 15:14:56 #topic Email client bug when opening a draft no text - c-la (10 min) 15:15:03 lol coderus 15:15:03 #info there is a longtime bug in the email client: when opening a draft the email has no text (body) even if there is text. The first words of the body are shown in the email preview when viewing drafts folder, 15:15:08 #info but the text of the body is not copied in the email. This makes editing and sending an email "on the fly" impossible on jolla. 15:15:12 #info request estimation about time needed to fix it and its inclusion in future SFOS release 15:15:16 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/75380/the-body-of-an-email-draft-is-cleared/ 15:15:30 this one should be a quick fix, especially for Vdvsx 15:15:37 is this a bug triade? 15:15:44 vdvdsx os not with jolla anymore i think 15:15:47 is 15:15:55 kimmoli: seems like it :-/ 15:16:05 kimmoli: appears not 15:16:06 ApBBB_: thx didn't know 15:16:07 lol 15:16:29 * cybette needs to consider meeting topic guidelines 15:16:38 any comments on this email client issue? 15:16:54 I did not find internal bug for this yet, will file if there isn't any. 15:16:59 cybette: +1 about the guidelines 15:17:05 have some problem too even with attacchments ... 15:17:10 sometimes are missing 15:17:15 file bugs in TJC 15:17:20 kimmoli: how else can we get in touch with sailors about long standing issues like these? open to suggestions 15:17:21 aaaand more reason to have more access to the internal bugzilla 15:17:24 cybette: info on certification of BT well ok, but general bug discussion? 15:17:34 c-la: #sailfishos ? 15:17:40 i dont mind having a community <-> jolla bug talk meetings... 15:17:41 veskuh_: I've got a mail with strange problem got attach but i can't see it on sailfish 15:17:43 #action veskuh_ to check internal bugzilla for this and will file bug if there isn't existing one 15:17:56 sailors usually get them from there and file them internally. However given they are low on resources things might take time 15:18:05 chem|st: yeap, thinking same 15:18:09 c-la: more or less what ApBBB_ said 15:18:10 veskuh_: thx. 15:18:15 np 15:18:50 cybette: we can move on, I'm okay 15:18:53 #action cybette to come up with clearer guidelines for proposing topics to the community collaboration meeting 15:19:00 c-la: ok thanks :) 15:19:01 I don't think bug triage should be excluded from these meetings 15:19:18 sorry if I misbehaved 15:19:27 me neither, since this literally fulfilled the intended purpose 15:19:28 c-la: you didn't :) 15:19:29 starting to get offtopic guys..... 15:19:30 at least until there are separate regular bug triage meeting established 15:19:34 M4rtinK: bug triaging really shouldn't wait for weekly meetings 15:19:40 we should at least discuss of a way of streamlining community bugs and submissions 15:19:46 perhaps there could be a separate triage meeting for bugs for those interested/involved 15:19:47 mhall119: definitely 15:19:57 urjaman: that sounds like a good idea 15:19:57 c-la: you didnt :) 15:20:10 but yes, let's take this off the meeting 15:20:13 let's carry on 15:20:15 cybette: jinx! lol etc. 15:20:23 #topic Status of SDL2 support & SDL2 apps in Harbor - MartinK (10 min) 15:20:39 #info Even though the SDL2 multimedia library has been allowed for Harbor applications since January 2015, it seems to be horrendously broken and all requests for it to be fixed seem to be ignored. Moreover apps working around the breakage are rejected by Harbor QA for spurious reasons. Can something be done about this? 15:20:43 yay SDL2 ! 15:20:44 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/70821/request-support-sdl-landscape-mode/ see comment nr. 4 for the question 15:21:09 stephg: ;) 15:21:19 comments on SDL2? 15:21:31 so basically, this is my reaction on following the SDL2 situation 15:21:38 oh, that's why i couldn't get the landscape mode to work... 15:21:57 there have been multiple queries from developers wanting to use SDL 15:22:04 that have been largely ignored 15:22:21 (you DID have to rotate your window manually on maemo 5, too) 15:22:39 as SDL more or less equals native games & multimedia apps 15:23:00 this is IMHO quite an important piece of technology that should work 15:23:04 didn't know that, thanks for the info javispedro 15:23:26 especially given all the Maemo 5 & 6 SDL legacy 15:24:09 so I would like to see the situation being resolved in some way 15:24:15 Yeah, SDL is important. We haven't had time to properly solve this. 15:24:22 eq. either the various issues being resolved 15:24:40 and this is no minor issue, since it seems it prevents landscape SDL games from entering the store at all 15:24:49 #info Importance of SDL is acknowledged, however Jolla hasn't had time to properly solve this 15:24:52 or at least some firm guidelines (at least for the time being) being established so that people can actually publish their SDL using apps 15:25:06 out of curiousity, is there any process to allow people outside of Jolla to contribute to fixing things like this? 15:25:22 mhall119: for middleware and things that are nemo/mer yes 15:25:30 "haven't had the time" and "that person doesn't work here anymore" seems to be a recurring problem 15:25:32 i.e. via that 15:25:32 M4rtinK: Yes, that could be a start 15:25:47 #idea Establish some firm guidelines (at least for the time being) so that people can publish their SDL using apps 15:26:00 mhall119: given the current exodus, is that very surprising? 15:26:04 mhall119: unfortunately true 15:26:14 I think also something like "we thing X needs to be done but we don't have capacity to do it ourselves" might help 15:26:34 r0kk3rz: I'm not complaining or surprised, just pointing out that allowing external resources to be put to these tasks would help with it 15:26:36 M4rtinK: +1 15:26:37 mhall119: so sadly true.. 15:26:44 3 more min 15:27:18 I'll just note that this issues has been affecting multiple devs and has not been touched by Jolla for ~1-2 years AFAIK 15:27:22 is there a mer/nemo bug filed on this? 15:27:27 jolla should be proactive giving community to do things 15:27:47 mhall119: there is no streamlined process for the community to push stuff into jolla. this needs work but i don't expect much given the current situation 15:28:22 topic "community helping out" coming up 15:28:30 not only for code but for localization art or whatever. 15:28:48 M4rtinK: can we go to the next topic? 15:28:55 I think it should definitely be easier for people to contribute 15:28:55 cybette: i 'll put it on the next meeting 15:29:03 ApBBB_: please do :) 15:29:05 cybette: sure 15:29:11 thank 15:29:13 thanks 15:29:20 #topic Out of band updates to allowed libraries for Harbor - MartinK (5 min) 15:29:23 i see no mer/nemo bug, perhaps that is a solution here 15:29:26 #info In the previous meeting, coderus raised the point that sometimes important libraries are left out from the list of allowed libs by mistake even though they are stable and already included in the released update. 15:29:32 #info The current practice seems to be that the list of allowed libraries is only updated when a new SDK is released. This introduces a big delay, that will probably only be significantly worse now due to the limited resources prolonging SDK development and QA phases, effectively blocking app developers from the default apps store due to process limitations. 15:29:37 #info Can this be changed so that allowed library list updates covering already released stuff take effect immediately ? 15:30:38 afaik it was told in last meeting, SDK update is blocking allowing libraries immediately 15:30:58 yeah 15:31:06 and the question is - does that make sense ? 15:31:08 isnt those updateable by user ? 15:31:09 some updates should came to SDK as well 15:31:31 or at least rpmvaliator should update separately 15:31:32 especially in now when we can expect the update cycles to take (much?) longer 15:31:33 #link topic 4 in last meeting http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-12-09-14.30.html 15:32:10 end result: apps blocked from official store for months due to a single plaintext config file not being updated 15:32:30 any comments from Jolla? 15:32:37 M4rtinK: agreed, it shouldnt happen very often, but nice to have a process for when it does 15:32:48 I'm sure the QA engineers can manage updating a single config file once in a while :) 15:33:23 FWIW this already happened with the Qt Positioning imports 15:33:26 short topic: 1 min left for last words 15:33:35 ooor, rpmvalidator tool should sync with some online resource 15:33:40 it will cover all existing issues 15:33:44 it was also delayed by a couple of weeks due to this process 15:33:53 It might be doable with relatively minor effort, but did not check with harbour qa yet 15:33:54 all from me 15:34:21 Well, integrating rpm-validator to harbour binary upload is on the todo-list, so probably in that case it could be updated independent of the releases 15:34:38 pketo: yes, that would be good 15:34:41 #info It might be doable with relatively minor effort, but status have not been checkd with Harbour QA yet 15:35:22 #info integrating rpm-validator to harbour binary upload is on the todo-list, so probably in that case it could be updated independent of the releases 15:35:39 next topic 15:35:49 #topic Community helping out - MartinK (15 min) 15:35:54 #info Jolla/Sailfish OS seems to be in crisis and community members might want to help make the ship turn around, but there don't seem to be many concrete and widely accessible ways to do that at the moment: 15:35:58 #info one can buy another Jolla phone and that's about it. Are there some low-hanging-fruit (considering the expected current lack of resources at Jolla) aspects of Sailfish OS that community members can help out with ? 15:37:11 As discussed last time we are now building way for community to contribute to harbour qa, obviously it will take some time before it is ready 15:37:56 so even though the current crisis might have been averted - *for now* - it showed that there is a surprising amount of good will still left in the community 15:37:59 #info This has been touched on in the last meeting as well, topics 3 and 6 - http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-12-09-14.30.html 15:38:27 M4rtinK: +1 15:38:31 but not many ways to actually help, especially due for less technical users 15:38:37 *for 15:38:45 fan make user review video about the experience of Sailfish Os the engane new potential buyer to join in~ 15:38:49 +1 for the QA 15:38:53 M4rtinK: Yes, and it was really great help for example when people come and help with helsinki office move. 15:38:54 I think viral campaigns are an important point too. The one set up by Joshua is a great example! 15:38:56 engage 15:39:13 fravaccaro: fresh hw is needed 15:39:31 fravaccaro: which one? I missed it 15:39:35 one can take various community projects as an example 15:39:55 #info community has already helped in amazing ways e.g. Helsinki office move and viral campaigns like the one by JoshStrobl 15:40:04 there can help with a lot of things with different amounts of expertise needed 15:40:18 @dr_gogeta86 I know, but fresh hw is not something community can help with 15:40:25 @c-la isupportjolla.com 15:40:30 cybette, I just started a Thunderclap campaign as well. Info available via #ISupportJolla Twitter hashtag and link at isupportjolla.com 15:40:37 M4rtinK: what do you propose then? 15:40:42 not just code contributions but also localisation, testing, bug triage, documentation writing, helping to novice users, etc 15:40:46 #info there are more/different expertise in the community that can be used to help Jolla, in additional to technical capacity 15:40:59 fravaccaro: the hadk effort? 15:41:02 fravaccaro: if anyone in the community have 5-10 millions available they sure can :P 15:41:23 fravaccaro: thx 15:41:25 and I'm afraid then Sailfish OS project it severely lacking in this aspect 15:41:38 @Copernicus yup, but it's not suitable to everybody 15:41:43 especially if further crises like this one have to be avoided 15:41:44 helping happens in TJC 15:41:58 #info JoshStrobl has just started a Thunderclap campaign, more info available via #ISupportJolla twitter hashtag and isupportjolla.com 15:41:59 @ApBBB_ let me check my bank account.... xD 15:42:46 #info other suggestions include localisation, testing, bug triage, documentation, helping novice users, as well as answering questions on TJC 15:42:50 so are there any near term things people can help about ? or mid term things with some rough estimates when they might happen ? 15:43:00 localization can happen once the pootle thing is ready. there is a call for keyboards in TJC and people test other peoples bugs in tjc 15:43:50 we should spread out infos. Some days ago I tweet about FFOS dying, somebody replied to me explaining that it's still, alive, just no longer sold by carriers. It may look like something small, but saying to the world that Jolla is still alive may help spread out the message 15:44:13 M4rtinK: +1 15:44:16 or maybe some sort of "how to help make Sailfish OS awesome together" guide ? 15:44:48 (well, sorry for the crappy synthax) 15:44:51 something for people who want to help to get started 15:44:59 fravaccaro: +1 and I think the #ISupportJolla campaign has generated many tweets with the same idea 15:45:32 example of something like this for Fedora: 15:45:34 things like spreading SFOS requires HW 15:45:34 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join 15:46:02 M4rtinK, I would love to collaborate with you on getting something set up. We could have it on a community section on ISupportJolla or a separate place =) 15:46:07 good idea... 15:46:08 #link one way to help - Keyboard contributions https://together.jolla.com/question/124266/keyboard-contributions-for-inclusion-in-sfos/ 15:46:15 list of various topics (& link to more resources) people can help with 15:46:52 wasn't there an early tjc with links to everything foss and stuff? 15:47:03 #idea collaborate and gather support on isupportjola.com or someplace similar 15:47:10 and this is something even less tecnical users (like me) can do. It may convey the idea that the community is for everybody, as long as there's passion 15:47:18 4 more min 15:47:36 JoshStrobl: sure, but there needs to be something people can help with first 15:47:46 M4rtinK, of course :) 15:47:58 there are some thing already, but a lot of stuff needs support from Jolla first... 15:49:01 M4rtinK: we cant expect much given the circumstances 15:49:22 BTW, as for translations - there is already an unofficial l10n project on Transifex: https://www.transifex.com/kenya888/unofficial-jolla-translations/ 15:49:41 the community pootle got stalled quite close to going public because of the financial situation, hopefully we can get that forward sometime soon 15:49:42 let's continue this discussion in e.g. #jollamobile, #jollafanclub, the Jolla fan telegram group 15:50:06 #info Unofficial l10n project https://www.transifex.com/kenya888/unofficial-jolla-translations/ 15:50:25 ApBBB_: that's why I mention low-hanging-fruit - my idea is to give people "something" they can help with now 15:50:26 pketo: is it really problematic and can the community do something to make it work? 15:50:31 #info Community pootle was stalled quite close to going public due to the financial situation, hopefully this can move forward sometime soon 15:50:41 ApBBB_: the more elaborate stuff can sure take more time 15:50:52 times up for topic 15:51:10 #topic General discussions, wrap up, and next meeting - everyone (10 min) 15:51:37 ok, so I'll be that guy. Are there news to share about the upcoming update? 15:51:43 ApBBB_: afaik it is mostly about syncing bits with our internal tools 15:51:44 veskuh_: one question. what stops jolla from accepting payed apps in the store 15:52:07 ApBBB_ +1 15:52:30 eugenio: In my opinion we are quite close to getting the next update to early access 15:52:45 that's great to hear, thank you :) 15:52:46 pketo: can you just publish the tool so people can start and then sort out the sync stuff? 15:52:50 :-) 15:53:00 #info Jolla is quite close to getting the next Sailfish OS update for early access users 15:53:09 veskuh_, fantastic news 15:53:47 ApBBB_: I don't know details of that plan 15:54:17 also after the next update which items are in the roadmap. I know you are low on stuff but whats next? 15:54:23 for the record a pre-christmas break update would be nice :) 15:54:34 stuff to hack on during the holidays 15:54:39 that's for sure ;-) 15:54:40 haha 15:54:47 +1 15:54:48 ApBBB_: in theory, yes, but in practice it might bring up some unexpected issues 15:54:49 about next meeting: next week is christmas and following week is new year. I propose we have the next collaboration meeting after the new year, i.e. Jan 7, 2016 15:55:14 pketo: YOLOrelease :P 15:55:22 any volunteers to chair? 15:55:25 :b 15:55:45 cybette: +1, also hopefully to let the dust settle on money matters on the boat 15:55:48 ApBBB_: As Antti mentioned we have stuff coming up with partners and obviously filling those needs have been a big part of our work 15:55:57 cybette: so are youvsailing away for good? :( 15:56:26 you sailing* 15:56:37 c-la: i'm adrift at sea right now :) just asking for volunteers to chair this meeting (anyone can do it) 15:56:40 veskuh_: anything that will affect end users (ie vpn certificates etc). if you can't share i'll understand 15:57:00 cybette: if noone steps up I can (but I've not done it before) 15:57:03 cybette, can you walk me through using the IRC tools and what the processes are? 15:57:54 stephg, JoshStrobl: i'd be glad to show you the ropes. so since stephg raised his hand first let's have him chair the first meeting of 2016 and JoshStrobl you can take the next :) 15:57:58 thank you both! 15:57:59 ApBBB_: There probably would be many things I could share, but can't remember right now. 15:58:05 cybette, sounds good to me! 15:58:28 okies thanks 15:58:30 great! 15:58:45 nice to have new chairs! 15:58:50 #info Next meeting Thurs Jan-7 @ 14:30 UTC, Chairperson stephg 15:58:58 veskuh_: ok thanks no problem :) 15:59:02 #action cybette to send some guidelines for chairing meeting to stephg and JoshStrobl 15:59:40 last words from anyone? 15:59:52 right within 90 minutes. :( 15:59:52 :) 15:59:54 Have happy holidays! 16:00:12 this has been a long and exciting meeting. thanks to each and everyone of you for participating. Have a great Holiday season and see you next year! 16:00:14 yep JoshStrobl ! 16:00:17 merry xmas! :) 16:00:21 happy holidays everyone ;-) 16:00:22 the topic raised by ApBBB_ is good...I would like to know more in the next meeting 16:00:26 #endmeeting