09:00:53 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, Open Source, Collaboration 1st of July 2016 09:00:53 <merbot> Meeting started Fri Jul 1 09:00:53 2016 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings. 09:00:53 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 09:01:01 <Jaymzz> #info meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-June/007150.html 09:01:09 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting's chairperson today and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, be gentle and show due respect. 09:01:20 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 minutes) . Please prefix your name/handle with # info 09:01:31 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori, Community Manager, at your service 09:01:48 <jpetrell> #info Joona Petrell, UI Chief Engineer 09:01:57 <Jaymzz> did the bot change the topic? 09:02:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> #info Martin Kolman, community member & modRana developer 09:02:19 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe, community developer 09:02:40 <Venty> #info Martin Ebnöther, community member 09:02:41 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, jolla pootle & hw 09:02:53 <Tofe> #info Christophe Chapuis, community member 09:02:54 <jpetrell> Jaymzz: agenda link you point to refers to June 2nd https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-June/007150.html 09:03:06 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community, developping sometime 09:03:35 <Jaymzz> jpetrell: Yes I made a mistake in copying that! I will find and change the link 09:04:36 <Jaymzz> #info correct link : meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-June/007223.html 09:05:46 <Jaymzz> moving on in 2 minutes :) 09:07:09 <Jaymzz> Alright moving to the first topic 09:07:13 <Jaymzz> #topic UI interaction slowness (10 minutes, asked by: ApB) 09:07:23 <Jaymzz> #info: The introduction of SF2.0 brought a new -and in many cases improved- UI but also made some actions significantly slower than what it was with SF1.0 (ie locking the phone by gestures requires two motions instead of one). So are there any plans to address issues related to the above. 09:07:31 <ApBBB> So. SFOS2 introduced some changes to the UI and in some cases it slowed things down interaction wise (ie lock/blank the screen now requires a swipe and a tap). Also something that hasn't got attention since the beginning is duplication of gestures that if removed could make things faster (IMO at least)) 09:07:52 <ApBBB> Are there any people looking into stuff like that? 09:08:19 <jpetrell> we made lock screen transition faster on 2.0.2 so it wouldn't be so slow 09:08:41 <ApBBB> slow in terms of gestures needed 09:09:21 <r0kk3rz> it was said at the time that 2.X was going to be less 'efficient' on jphone than 1.X 09:09:31 <r0kk3rz> but compromises were made for the tablet 09:09:53 <jpetrell> we did a lot of user studies with sailfish 2.0, built dozen prototypes, while there are many useful power user gestures they often consume other users 09:10:20 <ApBBB> screen wake is also slow with the fade in animation (ie you double tap and wait instead of just waking up) 09:10:25 <jpetrell> top gesture to blank was seen as error by many 09:10:28 <Jaymzz> #info jpetrell: we did a lot of user studies with sailfish 2.0, built dozen prototypes, while there are many useful power user gestures they often consume other users 09:10:57 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: you have a dedicated hardware button, the gesture is just candy 09:11:13 <jpetrell> rokk3rz: I don't think sailfish 2.0 is a compromise for phones 09:11:37 <jpetrell> ApBBB: "screen wake is also slow with the fade in animation" that what I was referring to above 09:11:55 <r0kk3rz> afaik jaako said something along those lines, but i guess we're all used to it by now 09:12:13 <ApBBB> ok i get that -studies- but any chance of letting us customize gestures? Ie we have 2 minimize gestures (swipe left or right) and depending on settings no way to close an app. One of the duplicates could be used for close 09:13:09 <jpetrell> ApBBB: problem with customisation is that it adds combinations that we have to test, e.g. if you request that old implementation should still be optional it means we have to maintain two features: the old and the new 09:13:33 <ApBBB> by screen lock i meant when you swipe from the top to lock it. You swipe and you get the ambiance changer and lock which you must tap 09:13:37 <jpetrell> it increases maintenance and testing effort and makes the code order of magnitude more complex and thus buggy 09:13:57 <sledges> ApBBB: left or swipe is already customisable to bring events view 09:13:57 <jpetrell> so we try to avoid adding too many settings 09:14:02 <sledges> -or 09:14:13 <Jaymzz> #info gerture customisation adds combinations that we have to test, e.g. if you request that old implementation should still be optional it means we have to maintain two features: the old and the new 09:14:17 <jpetrell> also settings and modes risk confusing the UX 09:14:41 <Jaymzz> 3 minutes left 09:15:31 <ApBBB> sledges: i would like it if you could add a customization option to swipe from left and close the app 09:16:05 <sledges> closing app from top is coming from N9 times 09:16:10 <sledges> we wouldn't want to fragment that any further 09:16:31 <Jaymzz> 1 min left, please wrap up :) 09:16:36 <M4rtinK_phone_> BTW, swipe up from the bottom for the event screen made a lot of sense 09:16:55 <ApBBB> i hear you but in case you activate that you get the same gesture doing two things 09:16:58 <ballock_> ApBBB: you can still close the app from top; it's just the screen locking that's more problematic 09:17:07 <jpetrell> quote from our homescreen developer Andrew "Options are often easy to add but the more there are and the more obscure and unlikely to be actively used by developers they are the more likely they are to break and stay that way unnoticed. Complexity increases exponentially with options, after all a simple binary option can double the number of scenarios that can play out for an interaction. " 09:17:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> at least I am much more likely to need the event screen than the app drawer 09:17:13 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: depends what you need more often during the day - launch an app or check an event (and for event is already a shortcut, see above) 09:17:28 <Jaymzz> #info "Options are often easy to add but the more there are and the more obscure and unlikely to be actively used by developers they are the more likely they are to break and stay that way unnoticed. Complexity increases exponentially with options, after all a simple binary option can double the number of scenarios that can play out for an interaction. " 09:17:49 <Jaymzz> Alright we shall move on in a sec 09:17:51 <nh1402_work> I found swiping from left for the events screen a lot more natural 09:17:57 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: i got used to bottom drawer and couldn't live without, so each to their own i guess, we just try to deliver best middle ground possible 09:18:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> sledges: 99% its the event screen 09:18:32 <M4rtinK_phone_> i just start some apps once and leave them running 09:18:32 <sledges> nh1402_work: disagree, i'm right handed and can't reach left edge witih my thumb on jollac ;) 09:18:42 <sledges> so, conclusion: can't please everyone:) 09:18:43 <r0kk3rz> remember these things are *personal* devices, and so being able to fir your UX to you is important 09:18:46 <M4rtinK_phone_> twitter, browser and messages 09:18:59 <ApBBB> sledges: thats a size issue 09:19:01 <ApBBB> :P 09:19:01 <sledges> r0kk3rz: introduce a tweakUI app? ;) (it's already 2nd time we mention it here:) 09:19:07 * kimmoli made a PSA and then missed the start myself... 09:19:10 <M4rtinK_phone_> +1 09:19:16 <Jaymzz> Okay things are getting personal, moving to the next topic:D 09:19:21 <Jaymzz> #topic Requesting things to be added to mer-tools repo (5 minutes, asked by: toxip) 09:19:26 <sledges> ApBBB: it's how you use it ;P 09:19:26 <jpetrell> please give feedback, when we hear from multiple fronts about an UX issue we do try to address it, but we cannot make a toolbox UI for all 09:19:29 <Jaymzz> #info: Noticed that some basic tools like wget are not included in the mer-tools repo. How could we request things to be added to the repository? 09:19:35 <M4rtinK_phone_> even an unsupported tweak app would help 09:19:54 <sledges> yep, unsupported tweakUI +1 09:20:00 <Jaymzz> #info related to previous topic: please give feedback, when we hear from multiple fronts about an UX issue we do try to address it, but we cannot make a toolbox UI for all 09:20:04 <ApBBB> jpetrell: where do you want that feed back. TJC your email ? 09:20:14 <jpetrell> ApBBB: together jolla 09:20:25 <ApBBB> deal 09:20:29 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: ok to tag you in it? 09:20:32 <jpetrell> sure 09:20:52 <Jaymzz> Guys it is already next topic :) 09:21:01 <Jaymzz> Is it me, or the bot does not change topics? 09:21:06 <jpetrell> we are not a big team, so please be patient when waiting for replys 09:21:20 <jpetrell> Jaymzz: sorry! :) 09:21:37 <Jaymzz> Okay we start again :) 09:21:38 <Jaymzz> #topic Requesting things to be added to mer-tools repo (5 minutes, asked by: toxip) 09:21:51 <Jaymzz> #info: Noticed that some basic tools like wget are not included in the mer-tools repo. How could we request things to be added to the repository? 09:21:59 <Jaymzz> Now it changes topics 09:22:39 <jpetrell> lbt: ^^ 09:22:41 <sledges> in case lbt is not around atm, i'll quote what he said yesterday on here: 09:22:42 <sledges> < lbt> mer-tools is open for new tools (and updates to existing tools) 09:23:01 <Jaymzz> #info < lbt> mer-tools is open for new tools (and updates to existing tools) 09:23:39 <Jaymzz> That's it? I guess toxip is not available to discuss either 09:23:40 * lbt wasn't really paying attention but yep, that's right 09:23:42 <M4rtinK_phone_> even GPLv3 based updates ? ;-) 09:23:55 <lbt> yes for tools 09:23:55 <sledges> i guess pinging him on #mer or filing a bug to https://bugs.merproject.org is best? lbt :) 09:24:02 <M4rtinK_phone_> eq. GPLv2 wget from the middle ages 09:24:10 <jpetrell> M4rtinK_phone_: yeah tools are not in official releases so GPLv3 is fine 09:24:18 <lbt> mer-core is different as it goes on the device 09:24:42 <M4rtinK_phone_> jpetrell: sounds promissing! 09:24:46 <Jaymzz> #info tools are not in official releases so GPLv3 is fine 09:25:06 <r0kk3rz> cool, ive had packages to put in mertools for years 09:25:20 <Jaymzz> 1 minute remaining, let's wrap up 09:26:14 <Jaymzz> Well I guess that's it. so moving on in 30 sec 09:26:45 <Jaymzz> #topic Qt future (10 minutes, asked by: nh1402) 09:26:53 <Jaymzz> #info from QT 5.7 onwards it is no longer licensed under LGPL 2.1 does that affect us? 09:27:36 <Jaymzz> nh1402_work : you there? :) 09:27:39 <nh1402_work> yes 09:27:47 <Jaymzz> Alright let's discuss 09:27:52 <nh1402_work> I thought the question was self explanatory 09:27:59 <jpetrell> Qt 5.6 is long term release so the license change is not acute problem 09:28:05 * Jaymzz points to others :D 09:28:10 <Yaniel> what is it licensed as then? 09:28:19 <Jaymzz> #info Qt 5.6 is long term release so the license change is not acute problem 09:28:42 <jpetrell> more and more open source world is moving to LGPLv3 so we need to revisit our license policy 09:28:45 <r0kk3rz> yeah, lets get on 5.6 first :) 09:29:03 <Jaymzz> #info more and more open source world is moving to LGPLv3 so we need to revisit our license policy 09:29:31 <jpetrell> such things need to be approved by our investors first, so cannot really comment more 09:29:41 <Tofe> Has there been a prototypish try to move to Qt 5.6 already ? just to see the efforts involved ? 09:29:59 <jpetrell> Tofe: we are working on upgrading to Qt 5.6, compared to Qt 5.2 upgrade few years back this time has been much less painful 09:30:01 <M4rtinK_phone_> check the mer gitlub activity log 09:30:02 <nh1402_work> it's not an immediate problem was just thinking if we can't update QT from here 09:30:23 <Jaymzz> #info we are working on upgrading to Qt 5.6 09:30:30 <jpetrell> we've already got most Qt-based libraries building on top of Qt 5.6, but more maturisation is needed 09:30:37 <M4rtinK_phone_> lot of ongoing Qt 5.6 activity there 09:30:53 <nh1402_work> is there a timeframe for the QT5.6 release? or once it's stable it'll roll out 09:31:36 <jpetrell> no strict timeline, we need to do few full testing rounds to see what issues surface 09:31:41 <jpetrell> and then we'll know better 09:31:47 <nh1402_work> fair enough 09:32:00 <jpetrell> but its not many months away 09:32:02 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: fingers crossed! 09:32:32 <M4rtinK_phone_> lets hope that estimate holds :-) 09:32:59 <jpetrell> yes :) 09:33:11 <ApBBB> estimates never hold. :P 09:33:42 <jpetrell> well fuzzy estimates like "many months" just might 09:33:53 <Jaymzz> 3 minutes left! 09:34:11 <Tofe> a bit offtopic, but for LuneOS it has used Qt 5.6 for a couple of months now and it's working pretty well; so I'm optimistic for your case too :) 09:35:10 <Jaymzz> We can already move on if you guys are done with this topic 09:35:15 <nh1402_work> I am 09:35:20 <Jaymzz> alright cool 09:35:32 <Jaymzz> #topic Update outdated packages (10 minutes, asked by OhDaeto) 09:35:39 <Jaymzz> #info Sailfish OS (Nemo) contains a lot of outdated and officialy unsupported packages in repos. For example, there is Perl package version 5.16.1 while Cent OS 7 / RHEL supports 5.16.3. So I would like to know how the community can help you to update your packages and projects to latest actual versions, and which parts you think are the most weakest. Thanks in advance and sorry for my poor English. Hope you understood what I want to ask 09:35:39 <Jaymzz> :) 09:36:40 <jpetrell> create pull requests in mer-core for the packages, test on your jolla 1/c/tablet, fix bugs in related mw 09:37:18 <Jaymzz> #info create pull requests in mer-core for the packages, test on your jolla 1/c/tablet, fix bugs in related mw 09:37:54 <jpetrell> lately we have been putting more effort in upgrading the mw (fontconfig, tracker, etc.) 09:38:07 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: that is dependent on licence changes too yeah? 09:38:28 <jpetrell> rokk3rz: in many cases yes 09:38:43 <jpetrell> justifying technical debt work in business terms is often difficult, in short term upgrades often mean regression which has negative value 09:39:28 <urjaman> you should do it anyways, or end up a dinosaur 09:39:34 <jpetrell> yes 09:40:24 <jpetrell> longer you wait harder upgrading is, and why use open source if you don't merge upstream contributions/bug fixes 09:42:27 <Jaymzz> so I think the person who proposed this topic is not available and the discussion is not on-going. Right? 09:42:50 <jpetrell> yes 09:43:04 <ApBBB> he also got an answer by chria adam(i think) yesterday 09:43:09 <ApBBB> chris 09:43:19 <jpetrell> chris adams 09:43:20 <Jaymzz> we have 2 more minutes on this. I think I'll skip it and move to general discussion then :) 09:43:30 <Jaymzz> #topic General discussion (15 minutes) 09:44:27 <jpetrell> how many are using 2.0.2? e.g. if you got jolla c in the community event 09:44:46 <jpetrell> what kind of issues you have had? 09:45:22 <Jaymzz> jpetrell: I have had significant battey drain in standby mode. It can easily die overnight with no apps open 09:45:27 <r0kk3rz> hopefully mines in the mail :) 09:45:37 <ApBBB> many reported stuff on TJC but i am sure you read that :) 09:46:37 <jpetrell> so far we have received surprisingly small amount of issues, so overall maturity is looking quite good 09:46:48 <jpetrell> it has almost half year worth of changes 09:47:01 <eekkelund> Jaymzz: Rebooting helped, when I had same issua 09:47:23 <ApBBB> there is a small percent of people having it. I think the real issues will start showing up when it hits J1 09:47:51 <jpetrell> call recording feature has issues on jolla 1, backup restore has had issues, then language selection on startup wizard sometimes only works on second boot 09:47:57 <nh1402_work> there was announcement from TRI that they would be adding the Snapdragon 820 to their phones for some people iirc, but Sailfish doesn't currently support aarch64, so how is that going to work. 09:48:01 <jpetrell> ideally you could backup your data to Dropbox, OneDrive or memory card with Jolla 1 and restore with Jolla C, but it hasn't worked on all devices 09:48:09 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: is there anything holding up 2.0.2 on jphone? 09:48:11 <Jaymzz> eekkelund: I tried that, but didn't have any long standby times after that! I use my phones a lot! So, prob need to leave it overnight without charger and report bacl 09:48:44 <ApBBB> nh1402_work: it can work as 32 bit i believe 09:49:07 <jpetrell> r0kk3rz: afaics nothing big anymore 09:49:26 <r0kk3rz> so release should be SoonTM? 09:49:36 <jpetrell> something like that :) 09:49:37 <LarstiQ> r0kk3rz: within several months 09:49:39 * LarstiQ ducks 09:49:42 <ApBBB> when ready ™ 09:49:42 <r0kk3rz> :) 09:49:42 <eekkelund> Jaymzz: Maybe log cpu sleep with sysmon unoffical version(found from openrepos) 09:49:58 <andrewalker> are there any plans to update this page? https://sailfishos.org/developmentroadmap/ :) 09:50:01 <kimmoli> jpetrell: http://yle.fi/uutiset/kuluttajaliitto_hammastelee_mobiiliasiakkaiden_kiltteytta__sama_jos_ostaisi_labradorinnoutajan_mutta_saisi_chihuahuan/8994316 09:50:07 <eekkelund> When i had same issue, CPU didn't go to sleep 09:50:09 <jpetrell> seriously though we should get back to regular releases 09:50:24 <ApBBB> andrewalker: james awaits aproval by people that are on Holidays 09:51:11 <nh1402_work> ApBBB: but ghosalmartin has been wrestling with his device for some time to get it working, with no luck yet. 09:51:12 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: you could drop the release cadence a bit, its not so required these days 09:51:30 <andrewalker> ApBBB: right, got it 09:51:38 <ApBBB> nh1402_work: i was just guestimating 09:53:29 <Jaymzz> Alright 09:53:36 <Jaymzz> Seems quiet enough to move on! 09:53:52 <Jaymzz> #topic Next meeting's date and time 09:54:13 <Jaymzz> So, shall we stick to Fridays? 09:54:44 <sledges> nh1402_work: i think it was libhybris as last hurdle for aarch64 iirc (let's continue on #sailfishos-porters channel) (sorry missed topic's end) 09:54:45 <Jaymzz> or back to thu? 09:56:10 <urjaman> no comment it seems... 09:56:16 <Jaymzz> I suggest to postpone meetings for July since many will be on summer vacation 09:56:25 <Jaymzz> Suggestions anyone? :) 09:56:56 <r0kk3rz> yeah if sailors are on holidays, then we would usually have a break from meetings 09:57:33 <Jaymzz> Okay so how about next meeting to be on Aug 5th? 09:57:56 <Jaymzz> It's a Friday :) and about the time, we could stick to 09:00 UC, no problems here 09:58:26 <Jaymzz> UTC* 09:58:53 <sledges> 7pm in .au ;) (yet today we missed our aussies:) 09:59:12 <urjaman> middle of assembly 2016, but i suppose thats okay :P 09:59:18 <urjaman> (just noticed...) 09:59:43 <Jaymzz> urjaman: haha well if it's okay we say aug 5th :) 09:59:51 <Jaymzz> no one against it? some attending Assembly? :d 10:00:07 <Jaymzz> sledges: hopefully they'll attend next time :) 10:00:25 <sledges> yeah, it's winter down under:) 10:00:35 <Jaymzz> sledges yes :D 10:00:38 <tathhu> ...eh 10:00:41 <urjaman> i dont think anyone attending Assembly would mind being on IRC 10:00:47 <r0kk3rz> sledges: whats that got to do with it? 10:01:04 <sledges> r0kk3rz: absolutely nothing :P i thought you'd chip in;) 10:01:06 <Jaymzz> Okay nobody seems to be against the time nor the date! 10:01:33 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz: make it so 10:01:47 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on Friday August 5th 2016 at 09:00 UTC 10:01:54 <Venty> \O/ 10:02:06 <Jaymzz> Comments? views? Otherwise I'll end the meeting in a minute! 10:03:21 <Jaymzz> Alright! Thanks everyone for attending. A couple of notes: The bot did not register the 2 first # topics. So in case you want to check those please refer to the long. Thanks again and see you on Aug 5th 10:03:35 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting