08:00:00 <sledges> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 18th October 2017
08:00:00 <merbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 18 08:00:00 2017 UTC.  The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
08:00:00 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:06 <sledges> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2017-October/008048.html
08:00:16 <sledges> (osc copycat from James:) I am the meeting’s chairperson today and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:00:19 <sledges> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:00:47 <nh1402> #info nh1402, community member
08:00:56 <jenix> #info Jens Müller, Sailor / Community Member
08:01:04 <nekron> #info nekron, proud Sailfish X user
08:01:06 <stephg> #info Steph Gosling, community, porter
08:01:13 <tbr> #info tbr, mer community
08:01:34 <fellfrosch> #info Uli Müller, community member
08:01:40 <chriadam__> #info Chris Adams, developer at Jolla
08:01:45 <ljo> #info Leif-Jöran Olsson, community
08:01:53 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:01:58 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson, Jolla dev
08:02:14 <Mister_Magister> #info Mister_Magister, Porter and community
08:02:40 <Mister_Magister> totally forgot about meeting
08:02:44 <Sage_> #info Marko Saukko, Sailor @ Jolla
08:03:25 <mkosola> #info Matti Kosola, Sailor @ Jolla
08:03:58 <M4rtinK_phone_> #info Martin Kolman, modRana developer & community member
08:04:17 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, hw and l10n sailing @ Jolla
08:04:36 <vknecht> #info Vincent Knecht, community
08:04:39 <pketolai> #info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla
08:05:37 <eekkelund> #info eekkelund
08:05:40 <sledges> alrighty then!
08:05:43 <sledges> #topic Swype keyboard support on Sailfish OS (asked by nh1402 - 10 min)
08:05:44 <jpetrell> #info Joona Pterell, sailor @ Jolla
08:05:52 <jpetrell> Petrell sorry
08:06:03 <sledges> Not having a gesture based keyboard on a gesture based OS is baffling to me. I'm aware there might be license restrictions preventing it from being on the free version of Sailfish, but the prediction engine license for the keyboard on the licensed version of Sailfish also includes gesture based keyboard input. source #link:
08:06:08 <sledges> #link http://merproject.org/logs/%23sailfishos/%23sailfishos.2017-09-13.log.html#t2017-09-13T08:59:19
08:06:17 <sledges> #info Not having a gesture based keyboard on a gesture based OS is baffling to me. I'm aware there might be license restrictions preventing it from being on the free version of Sailfish, but the prediction engine license for the keyboard on the licensed version of Sailfish also includes gesture based keyboard input. source #link above
08:06:18 <jwalck> #info Jonatan Walck, community member
08:06:32 <sledges> #info There is already a post on TJC that has gathered over 500 votes for it So it's not like it's not popular.
08:06:37 <sledges> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/333/swype-like-virtual-keyboard/
08:06:54 <sledges> nh1402: and action!
08:07:21 <r0kk3rz> ooh, morning :)
08:07:46 <nh1402> so yes, there has already been a very popular post in the top 10 of the whole TJC website, but almost 4 years later, still no implementation.
08:08:15 <jpetrell> we would like to have tracing input keyboard too, and have had it on our roadmap for some time
08:08:18 <nh1402> a former employee has stated your license for the prediction engine includes gesture typing
08:08:34 <jpetrell> one reason being we already have the backend support
08:08:37 <ljo> Well, we have okboard
08:08:59 <nh1402> but that's not an official keyboard
08:09:15 <nh1402> and sometimes that breaks between different versions of Sailfish
08:09:16 <dr_gogeta86> hi
08:09:18 <dr_gogeta86> sorry to be late
08:09:43 <Robbster> I've used okboard, which is a good start, but I'm not sure about its stability
08:09:51 <ljo> No, its a community one, so importance is not higer than for other really missing stuff
08:10:15 <nh1402> the whole OS is gesture based, but the keyboard isn't...
08:10:33 <ApBBB> the keyboard cant even change layputs with a gesture :/
08:10:47 <nh1402> it should have been officially supported from the start in my opinion
08:11:29 <jenix> jpetrell: So, how's the current status of that feature? Is it still on the "some time" part of the roadmap? :)
08:11:30 <jpetrell> for the start we tried to have time to do a keyboard
08:11:50 <jpetrell> we are not a large company that can support multiple different input methods from the start
08:12:15 <nh1402> but you pride yourselves on having a gesture based OS
08:12:26 <nh1402> that should include input
08:12:28 <jpetrell> jenix: it is still no our roadmap, our text input developer very much would like to work on it if gets time from customer projects
08:12:53 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: in an ideal world perhaps, but bug surface area matters :)
08:12:54 * sledges would miss "swipe-down-to-hide-keyboard" and the unimplemented "swipe-sideways-to-change-layouts" :)
08:13:11 <sledges> but probably those should still work if swipe is disabled in settings
08:13:12 <nh1402> another way around would be to use an Android keyboard in Sailfish
08:13:30 <jenix> any chance to give a little priority to it since it seems to be a popular feature request? :)
08:13:37 <sledges> (2mins remaining)
08:13:57 <jwalck> oh no don't base "core" things on the android tie-in. the android support is a nifty bonus and a stopgap, not a part of sailfish
08:13:58 <Robbster> what about building on okboard and possibly pulling it into the store?
08:14:05 <jpetrell> change language gesture would be hard to do consistently, e.g. wouldn't work on tracing input or handwriting recognition
08:14:20 <sledges> jpetrell: same with already implemented one - swipe down
08:14:46 <jpetrell> sledges: true
08:15:02 <nh1402> jwalck: I'm not saying to have it as the only option, I'm saying to give the user an option
08:15:06 <r0kk3rz> swipe space bar for caret repositioning would be cool too :)
08:15:25 <jpetrell> I would like to rewrite swipe down gesture so keyboard would follow the finger, now it is not really discoverable as no feedback is given until the end
08:15:42 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: for a long time i never knew it existed :)
08:15:47 <sledges> +1
08:15:48 <Robbster> back on topic - swype keyboard
08:15:51 <jpetrell> Robbster: looks like the license fits, we could use it as a base to speed up the development
08:16:08 <M4rtinK> making sure the community provided gesture based keyboard doesn't brake regularly seems like a good start
08:16:12 <Robbster> jpetrell: was checking out the license - seems like we can use it. Not sure about language support.
08:16:23 <sledges> great minds ^^
08:16:27 <M4rtinK> possibly propagating it more might help as well
08:16:38 <Robbster> what would it take to polish okboard up and get it into the store?
08:16:40 <M4rtinK> community/co-creation power ;-)
08:16:43 <nh1402> so even though it's still one of the most requested features on TJC it's still not going to prioritised any higher
08:17:04 <nh1402> going to be*
08:17:06 <r0kk3rz> jolla isnt a democracy
08:17:10 <Robbster> nh1402: priorities
08:17:26 <sledges> #info take OKBoard as reference (license is permissive) to speed up development, not on roadmap, but wished for inside Jolla as well, so let's hope for a swift (pun intended) outcome!
08:17:46 <sledges> moving on folks
08:17:48 <M4rtinK> r0kk3rz: this is not about democracy - this is about listening to you customers, IMHO
08:17:56 <sledges> #topic Configure app drawer (asked by nh1402 - 5min)
08:18:14 <jpetrell> if somebody pays 10k euro to Jolla I promise we will implement it in the next release
08:18:17 <r0kk3rz> M4rtinK: they listened, they just didnt act
08:18:25 <sledges> #info Have the ability to reorder apps, alphabetically ascending/descending, custom reordering, by installation, let the user decide.
08:18:25 <Mister_Magister> nh1402: again :D
08:18:43 <nh1402> so, the app drawer is organised by installation datetime
08:18:47 <nh1402> with no other option
08:19:05 <M4rtinK> jpetrell: seems perfectly doable via crowdfunding if someone set's it up (and I'm not kidding)
08:19:05 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: did you make a tjc for this?
08:19:07 <dcaliste> jpetrell: the idea of crowdfunding for features is coming back ? ;)
08:19:18 <jpetrell> +1 :)
08:19:19 <dcaliste> M4rtinK: too quick for me!
08:19:26 <nh1402> having an option to reorder it by other means would be highly appreciated
08:19:47 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: going back to the previous topic, making a post on tjc means nothing.
08:20:01 <Robbster> nh1402: you can move the icons and implement your own ordering?
08:20:01 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: not nothing...
08:20:14 <nh1402> Robbster: you can?
08:20:24 <abranson> nh1402: I disagree there - people at Jolla see them, and loads of them end up being 'released'
08:20:32 <dr_gogeta86> sledges, on n9 swipe-sideways-to-change-layouts activate swype keyboard as well
08:20:32 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: yeah... drag things around, make folders :)
08:20:42 <Robbster> nh1402: long press on any icon. move it where you want it. move icons on each other to group them into a folder
08:20:48 <abranson> sometimes things are on there for a long time, but that doesn't mean their priority isn't affected by the post and votes
08:20:50 <jpetrell> this is though one, the interface should be kept as simple as possible for most users while power users want more features
08:20:56 <nh1402> there is still over 50% of the top TJC posts unimplemented
08:21:25 <jpetrell> nh1402: give us a break, we have also implemented a lot
08:21:40 <jpetrell> many worked over nights and weekends on some of those features
08:22:00 <nh1402> sorry, I'm just being a bit salty today
08:22:04 <r0kk3rz> they even worked for a few months without pay... so indeed give them a break :P
08:22:13 <jpetrell> nh1402: :)
08:22:22 <Robbster> nh1402: are we still on app drawer topic?
08:22:37 <jenix> seems like it
08:22:38 <jpetrell> most people don't really have that much apps to benefit from so extensive set of options
08:22:43 <nh1402> well seeing as there actually is a way to reorder, I suppose that answers the question
08:22:52 <Robbster> nh1402: well, not actually
08:22:55 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: back on topic, so you can reorder and make folders, was there anything else you thought was missing?
08:22:58 <sledges> #info this is though one, the interface should be kept as simple as possible for most users while power users want more features
08:23:01 <jpetrell> global and in-app search is IMO more important than sorting
08:23:06 <Robbster> the fact that you didn't know about it means that there is an education opportunity
08:23:15 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: alphabetically order the app drawer
08:23:28 <nh1402> or by use
08:23:37 <Robbster> nh1402:  Use case for alphabetical?
08:23:43 <r0kk3rz> its clunky but you can do that manually
08:24:02 <nh1402> it's that way on Android these days, those coming from Android would find it easier to transition.
08:24:09 <jenix> Robbster: All those Android users who have been forced to learn this order :D
08:24:22 <jpetrell> adaptive interfaces are tricky, sort ordering by use would mean position of your apps would be in constant flux
08:24:22 <fellfrosch> there is a possibility to reorder the apps, isn't that enough for the moment?
08:24:23 * sledges just reordered phone/sms/browser/camera three rows down in grid to reach them with thumb, also all other often used apps are now finally "under the fingertip":) so manual is quite most often used i'd think
08:24:33 <Robbster> jenix: Seems like low bus. value.
08:25:01 * Robbster wants to remind everyone that there may be an education opportunity here.
08:25:02 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: app search would be cool though
08:25:15 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: yes, definitely
08:25:23 <fellfrosch> there is already an app for app search
08:25:24 <sledges> #info global and in-app search is IMO more important than sorting
08:25:44 <eekkelund> We have app search in Glacier :)
08:25:46 <sledges> fellfrosch: link/name?
08:25:50 <r0kk3rz> fellfrosch: an app for app search :) yoyo dawg...
08:25:55 <jpetrell> eekkelund: cool :)
08:26:00 <jenix> If I may throw a similar but different point regarding the app drawer in: it's annoying that updated apps are moved to the bottom again (but problably not easy to change that)
08:26:01 <abranson> careful, Tracker is listening :)
08:26:02 <fellfrosch> Quick launcher
08:26:07 <ApBBB> there isn't a super big number of good apps in order to need search :/
08:26:34 <jpetrell> jenix: ouch. really? :/
08:26:58 <jenix> jpetrell: I noticed that at least for android apps (probably because they are removed and the nreinstalled)
08:27:09 <Robbster> jenix: never noticed that behavior in sailfish.
08:27:14 <abranson> me neither
08:27:20 <M4rtinK> maybe don't hie app names in the reordering mode ?
08:27:27 <M4rtinK> it's supper annoying
08:27:32 <sledges> #info app search app is "Quick launcher" in jolla store for community to have fallback for now
08:27:41 <jenix> ok, then maybe it's just me
08:27:41 <M4rtinK> & folders have names anyway, so there is really no reason to do it
08:28:00 <nh1402> M4rtinK: yes
08:28:09 <sledges> #info Glacier UI (FOSS Sailfish OS sibling) has app search too
08:28:10 <jpetrell> for app drawer liked sledges suggestion to allow quick launch of four most important apps you have: opening only the first line of the drawer with shorter gesture
08:28:13 <sledges> let's wrap up
08:28:33 <sledges> jpetrell: +1 drawer goes only as much up as you pull, not jumps to the top
08:28:35 <Mister_Magister> Robbster: was thinkling about the same
08:28:35 <Mister_Magister> nh1402: just hold your finger on app
08:28:40 <jenix> I'll check if I can reproduce that quickly and would get back to that later in the general discussion
08:28:43 <M4rtinK> also what I've seen is a gesture to bring up keyboard, whioch you can then use to type-to-search on a screen
08:28:56 <M4rtinK> definitely power user material, but can be super handy
08:29:35 <Robbster> Mister_Magister: thinking the same about what :/
08:29:36 <sledges> jpetrell: only first row pull also reminds N9 :)
08:29:37 <r0kk3rz> sounds like an overloaded bottom swipe
08:29:39 <jpetrell> jenix: cool thanks
08:29:41 <sledges> ok moving on
08:29:45 <ApBBB> M4rtinK: it will most likely ovelap with another gesture
08:29:54 <sledges> #topic Sailfish X storage space (asked by c_la - 30 min)
08:30:14 * Robbster is interested in this topic
08:30:15 <sledges> #info it seems that there are only 18GB of disk space available and that the data for system partition is only 2GB. I believe there should be a discussion with sailors about it.
08:30:21 <sledges> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/168968/xperia-x-internal-storage/
08:30:49 <nh1402> well in the log, it seems he/she is unable to attend the meeting today
08:30:59 <jenix> maybe, it's c_la_phone ?
08:31:09 <sledges> c_la_phone is in (another) meeting; anyone can substitute
08:31:13 <sledges> or just discuss:)
08:31:13 <nh1402> yes, he/she mentioned they'll be online but busy
08:31:16 <Robbster> I have sailfishX and was wondering the same thing
08:31:20 <jenix> ok
08:31:27 <r0kk3rz> its worth noting that the partitions listed in Storage isnt all the partitions on the phone
08:31:32 <jenix> well, the question that came up was regarding the partition sizes
08:31:51 <jenix> especially why the system partition still is limited to 2 GB
08:32:00 <Robbster> jenix: aha
08:32:18 <jenix> which can become quite unhandy when you have lots of apps installed on it and qant to update the phone
08:32:25 <jenix> *want
08:32:38 <peperjohnny> I have only 18GB available as well
08:32:54 <M4rtinK> basically, why the 7 GB fwimage partition ?
08:33:01 <Robbster> exactly, but the device has 32 Gb and only 20 is available - not okay to give up almost 30% of space.
08:33:04 <M4rtinK> & why is rootfs so small (2.4 GB)
08:33:25 <jenix> I think the big question here is if there is a specific reason for that or if Jolla can want to consider raising the size of the system partition in future relases
08:33:26 * M4rtinK already has less than 700 MB left on rootfs and he didn't even install Emacs yet
08:33:27 <abranson> two different questions here. the root fs size and the missing space on the xperia
08:33:42 <M4rtinK> jenix: +1, exactly
08:33:59 <abranson> M4rtinK: the reason for that is that we don't repartition the phone from its android layout, as that opens a huge can of worms
08:34:00 <Robbster> abranson: splitting hairs, but ok
08:34:24 <abranson> the partition we use for the fwimage is the android system partition
08:34:26 <nh1402> speaking of android, how much space does aliendalvik use?
08:34:28 <abranson> which is 8gb
08:34:36 <M4rtinK> abranson: oh, so they have it setup in this stupid way ?
08:34:52 <abranson> for android it makes sense as the android system is huge
08:35:02 <r0kk3rz> M4rtinK: its not stupid for them, it just doesnt map well for us
08:35:09 <M4rtinK> abranson: is 2.4 GB not enough for recovery images ?
08:35:12 <abranson> if we had somewhere else to put the fwimage, then we could add it to the lvm pool and you'd have it all
08:35:19 <M4rtinK> 7 GB for root would make much more sense
08:35:28 <M4rtinK> oh, right
08:35:30 <M4rtinK> I get it now
08:35:41 <abranson> but there's nowhere else to put the fwimage, and that's quite important
08:35:41 <M4rtinK> rootfs & home are on LVM
08:35:44 <abranson> yes
08:35:47 <M4rtinK> and there is the separate 7 GB partition
08:35:53 <abranson> yes
08:36:05 <M4rtinK> does FWimage need to be a partition ?
08:36:23 <jenix> well, personally, I don't mind the loss of these 7 GB, that's why you have sdcards, right? :)
08:36:29 <M4rtinK> if it was an LV you could do another PV on the 7 Gb partition and all would be well
08:36:34 <abranson> there are instructions around for recreating the userdata and system partitions, but that's really dangerous play
08:36:55 <nh1402> could we have an option in developer settings to re-partition?
08:37:06 <abranson> putting the fwimage in an LVM partition is a bit risky too
08:37:11 <M4rtinK> AFAIK the recovery at the moment drops the whole LVM, including the volume group and recreates it
08:37:22 <M4rtinK> but I think that a bit too paranoid
08:37:28 <abranson> you have the recovery image, and that's probably a low enough bar for messing with this
08:37:32 <M4rtinK> just dropping the LVs should be enough
08:37:35 <abranson> but you can see why the current choices were made
08:37:50 <sledges> M4rtinK: what if device gets bricked by errors in LVM?
08:38:07 <jenix> abranson: regarding the partition use, I'll do. But why only 2.4 GB for the system lvm?
08:38:07 <sledges> (if we held fimage in there)
08:38:32 <jenix> s/lvm/partition/g
08:38:40 <M4rtinK> sledges: I don't think that'S very likely, LVM is pretty robust
08:39:16 <fellfrosch> one of the problems of losing space on internal memory is, that android apps cannot write on SD cards. Otherwise I wouldn't care...
08:39:36 <abranson> jenix: that was enough on a 16gb device, but I don't know if there are reasons why it should stay that way on a larger device
08:39:37 <Robbster> fellfrosch: and then there is excessive eMMC write fatigue
08:40:01 <jenix> i see
08:40:06 <sledges> M4rtinK: probably also as well so that no-one would be able to delete/access that image ;P
08:40:13 <sledges> it is on separate partition
08:40:15 <M4rtinK> sledges: Fedora & RHEL have been using it as default partitioning for ever and it doesn't just crap out for no reason
08:41:41 <M4rtinK> jenix: but other than that I think the rootfs should be at least made bigger, that's indeed the more pressing concern
08:41:52 <jenix> abranson: I'd imagine it to be quite some additional work, but maybe you could add a partition setting to the install process. Or is the partitioning already fix in the flashin image?
08:42:18 <sledges> #info it is not possible to repartition the device, hence we lose 7 GB worth of space in the Android's system partition (that we only use for ~1.5 GB factory reset image, which cannot be placed elsewhere)
08:42:35 <M4rtinK> especially as die to various Store and platform limitations apps are likely to get bigger over time due to bundling
08:43:28 <Robbster> sledges: are there post installation steps that we can follow to reclaim some of that space?
08:43:32 <jenix> (e.g. add custom parameters to the flashing script which you can use to define individual sizes)
08:43:37 <M4rtinK> abranson: it's anything liekly to blow up if people resize the fwimage partition and add a new PV on the empty space ?
08:44:03 <abranson> M4rtinK: I haven't tried that, but I think someone on tmo has.
08:44:08 <Robbster> sledges: alternatively: Are there post installation steps to enlarge the system partition to greater then 2Gb to future proof the device?
08:44:09 <sledges> Robbster: it can only be done via repartitioning and losing factory reset
08:44:32 <sledges> Robbster: i have 2.4 GB on Jolla C, same on Xperia X for system partition
08:44:33 <abranson> i think if you get it right then you're ok, but it's easy to get wrong and lose your radios or worse
08:44:35 <Robbster> sledges: can we resive partitions and then reflash?
08:44:42 <M4rtinK> that should be even doable from the OS itself, as the partition should not be mounted mounted
08:44:44 <jenix> Robbster: You can always resize the lvm partitions from the recovery
08:45:03 <sledges> Robbster: 11:36 < abranson> there are instructions around for recreating the userdata and system partitions, but that's really dangerous play
08:45:17 <jenix> you wouldn't get additional space, but can increase the system partition if needed
08:45:19 <sledges> Robbster: same about resizing
08:45:42 <Robbster> sledges: seen them, but seems complicated and not specific to XperiaX size. haven't tried.
08:45:53 <Robbster> jenix: I'll take it!
08:46:19 <M4rtinK> jenix: if you make the fwimage partition smaller, create a new PV in the empty space and add it to the system volume group
08:46:23 <M4rtinK> you would get more space
08:46:57 <M4rtinK> but it's likely easier to just resize the LVs in the VG than to do this
08:47:06 <jenix> M4rtinK That's right, but as abranson pointed out, this is actually much more dangerous as you can destroy important data areas
08:47:49 <jenix> resizing inside the LVM is much less error prone
08:48:01 <abranson> really important areas. there are qualcomm partitions there that cannot be easily replaced, and permanently disable hardware or the entire phone if you mess with them
08:48:01 <Robbster> Is there something that we can do in android prior to flash to make it easier?
08:48:13 <nh1402> on a related note I think the Xperia 2011 series had to be re-partitioned to get newer (unofficial) versions of Android installed on them.
08:48:15 <jenix> Robbster: There are various guides around for that, I'll get you a link
08:48:16 <abranson> Robbster: no - android's using all of that
08:48:28 <Robbster> abranson: thx, just checking
08:48:59 <Robbster> jenix: pm?
08:49:29 <jenix> Robbster: For the Jolla C there is a guide here: https://together.jolla.com/question/156279/installing-system-updates-fails-when-there-is-not-enough-space-in-system-data-partition/?answer=156670#post-id-156670
08:49:42 <jenix> Robbster:  you basically just have to adjust partition sizes
08:50:06 <Robbster> jenix: 'just' 'basically' :D
08:50:23 <Robbster> Would it be possible to update the TJC post with the reasons?
08:50:50 * M4rtinK notes how crazy the whole thing is due to sticking to plain partitions
08:51:01 <Robbster> Would it be possible to create a 'how to' to resize XperiaX partitions with the correct sizes?
08:51:06 <M4rtinK> it would have been so much easier if they used LVM
08:51:24 <M4rtinK> (they == Android)
08:51:30 <sledges> #info to the brave souls out there:
08:51:31 <M4rtinK> it has been there fo ages...
08:51:32 <sledges> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/156279/installing-system-updates-fails-when-there-is-not-enough-space-in-system-data-partition/?answer=156670#post-id-156670
08:52:16 * Robbster is not that brave
08:52:19 <abranson> I think an explanation of the reasons why it is how it is could be done, but I think it would be foolish to try to provide instructions on repartitioning on tjc, especially not from someone from Jolla. so many devices would be lost.
08:52:20 <eekkelund> lantern in TMO has done some partitioning on f5122: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1536460&postcount=1580
08:52:26 <abranson> the bar needs to be high
08:52:44 <jenix> Robbster: Well, the issue with stuff like that is that it is quite safe from the system point (you are running some quite safe commands), but you can damage the filesystem and have to reflash the device if you are using them wrong
08:53:06 <jenix> abranson: I totally agree with you
08:53:11 <abranson> messing around with the lvm is an order of magnitude safer than the physical device partitions though
08:53:11 <locusf> the partitioning doesn't even matter as long as kernel supports it and the ramdisk can mount it
08:53:18 <r0kk3rz> abranson: is there a possibility to brick the phone even with emma flash mode?
08:53:36 <Robbster> jenix: happy if I have to reflash. as long as that option is available. It's the bricking that I'm worried about.
08:53:56 <abranson> r0kk3rz: yeah you could remove the thing that emma talks to
08:54:26 <r0kk3rz> abranson: i thought that would be off limits to the OS, but maybe not :)
08:54:29 <abranson> now stephg will sing the ballad of his x compact. 'tis a sad tale of woe.
08:54:30 <r0kk3rz> im not going to try
08:54:44 <r0kk3rz> :D
08:54:47 <jenix> Robbster: I'm not aware you can totally brick your phone with the resizing - if anything goes wrong, the system or user partition is messed up, which is easily be replaced during recovery / reflashing
08:54:50 <sledges> #info no safe solutions exist to the two problems: losing 7 GB to factory reset, and too small system partition (rootfs); we'll have in mind to enlarge rootfs in future devices, for now just install less apps and use SD card ;)
08:55:32 <jenix> sledges: You forgot "You are holding it wrong" :D
08:55:34 <Robbster> sledges: no. Avoiding the problem is not good enough.
08:55:51 <sledges> Robbster: bricking device isn't either
08:55:53 <sledges> moving on
08:55:55 <sledges> #topic General QA after sailfish X release (asked by c_la - 30 min)
08:56:10 <Robbster> sledges: I'll forgo the 7Gb, but the system partition size should be solvable?
08:56:22 <M4rtinK> technically you can mount the factory reset partition at runtime and use it to store data ;-)
08:56:23 <sledges> Robbster: only to power users
08:56:29 <jenix> So, how did the release of SFOS X went for you at Jolla?
08:56:35 <M4rtinK> just leave enough for the images :)
08:57:21 <stephg> is v. sad tale
08:57:21 <jenix> From all I've seen on TJC and TMO, there were no bigger issues, so first of all congratulations for the successful release
08:57:24 <stephg> :)
08:57:50 <ApBBB> sledges: please tell me you are starting preparing stuff for xz1  compact :D
08:58:06 <r0kk3rz> jenix: the whinge brigade was out on TJC :)
08:58:10 <stephg> jenix: reflashing may not be possible btw, I'd be very careful with the partitions
08:58:17 * stephg just got off bike
08:58:19 <sledges> ApBBB: i can't tell you that :D
08:58:43 <ApBBB> i hope you do.
08:58:50 <ApBBB> even without telling me
08:59:12 <M4rtinK> ApBBB: +1 on the XZ1, people have been asking me about it as well
08:59:16 <r0kk3rz> ApBBB: im certain all focus is still on the Xperia X
08:59:28 <jenix> sledges: So, now official comment about if / what devices are next for a SFOS X release?
08:59:41 <nh1402> sledges: when *can* you tell us the next Sony device?
08:59:54 <sledges> why's xperia x not ok? ;)
09:00:00 <stephg> too big :D
09:00:06 <sledges> for how many people?
09:00:08 <ApBBB> too big
09:00:11 <eekkelund> stephg +1
09:00:14 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: after they've decided what its going to be
09:00:18 <abranson> tsk. it's only been seven days since it launched.
09:00:41 <r0kk3rz> sledges: have you looked into Neard for NFC support on the X?
09:00:48 <jenix> sledges: it totally is for me. But seeing that the number of vendors were limited at launch, it's probably becoming difficult to get hold of the hardware soon
09:01:00 <M4rtinK> r0kk3rz: that's also a good point
09:01:32 <sledges> jenix: vendors? xperia x sellers?
09:01:35 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: iirc that requires kernel level changes
09:01:36 <M4rtinK> NFC would be nice, even just supported at API level so that third party developers can use it
09:01:46 <sledges> jenix: x compact is EOL too just as x
09:01:51 <jenix> sledges: yes, shops that sell the xperia x
09:01:53 <M4rtinK> IIRC there is a Qt API for that, it just needs to be wired to that
09:02:22 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: it shouldnt do... not with 3.10 kernel
09:03:15 <sledges> around 20 people talking here today, 3-4 said that xperia x is too big
09:03:18 * sledges writes down the % :D
09:03:24 <jenix> speaking of kernels... Sony will release a 4.4 kernel for the xperia x for the next andoird version, any chance we will see that in SFOS?
09:03:41 <stephg> sledges: well it's a trend generally in the market isn't it
09:03:42 <sledges> r0kk3rz: no time for nfc, how about community (hw adaptation is open ;)
09:03:52 <nh1402> jenix: iirc sledges didn't rule out not updating the kernel
09:03:54 <fellfrosch> for me it's also slightly to big. Bought it anyway
09:04:02 <sledges> stephg: i'm thinking how much that would boost sales (but i'm not sfx program manager, just curious ;)
09:04:10 <r0kk3rz> sledges: yeah i'll poke around with it, i built neard on merobs
09:04:31 <sledges> \o/
09:04:52 <stephg> heh
09:05:06 <abranson> jenix: last time I looked the camera wasn't working yet for the X on 4.4.
09:05:16 <peperjohnny> are your expectations regarding sales numbers of Sailfish X fullfilled?
09:05:23 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: one thing is that it probably won't support host card emulation
09:05:46 <jwalck> sledges: all "smart" phones are too big for pockets - but that is what it is. baggy pants or keep your phone in your hand!
09:05:48 <nh1402> which I would like, in android support, for mobile payments
09:06:22 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: yes you said before, but if zero phones use neard then why would they implement that?
09:06:30 <jenix> abranson: I also heard that Sony is still experimenting / adapting to the X hardware, so it's probably not gonna happen the next month. But it would nevertheless be great to see 4.4 on the xperia x
09:06:42 <sledges> peperjohnny: very much so! keep 'em coming :D tell your friends etc :)) (how many of them have x compacts? ;)
09:06:45 <nh1402> abranson: not just the camera's iirc the headphone jack doesn't work and a few other things
09:06:47 <r0kk3rz> atm its geared more for tag reading and POS use
09:06:51 <ApBBB> jwalck: someone needs to come up with a edge to edge 4.7" phone. i believe they can fit it in n9 dimensions
09:06:55 <ApBBB> more or less
09:07:25 <peperjohnny> @sledges glad to hear. I'll shout it out to the world ;)
09:07:26 <nh1402> ApBBB: so something like the Sharp Aquos Crystal?
09:07:43 <jenix> a newer kernel may also solve the issues some are having with their sd cards
09:07:45 <jwalck> ApBBB: or just realize your phone is not your laptop no matter how hard you try - and do the best with something pocketable for phoney use instead?
09:07:48 <r0kk3rz> on the screen size debate i see a lot of chinese ladies with a ring stuck to the back of their phones
09:07:53 <r0kk3rz> with huge phone sizes
09:08:25 <stephg> r0kk3rz: have a friend here who has that, she really likes it (think she has an s6 or s7)
09:08:42 <r0kk3rz> stephg: yeah its a fairly genius idea really
09:08:43 * Robbster wonders if we are still on topic?
09:08:45 <abranson> nh1402: there's lots of lovely things in that 4.4 kernel. but we'd need full android 7 bsp support too which we're not there with yet.
09:08:49 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: the way I see that is if you need that ring to hold the phone, you bought the wrong phone.
09:09:11 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: what if you like the big screen?
09:09:18 <jenix> abranson: but it sounds you are looking into it and it may happen once sony got things sorted out!?
09:09:21 <Robbster> <insert reminiscing about n900>
09:09:34 <jwalck> I havent bought xperia x + sailfish x yet since my jolla c works well enough and I'd much rather support fairphone and save my environmental conciousness than buy more electronics to stack in a drawer
09:09:55 <r0kk3rz> anyway we can talk all day about screen sizes and never agree, so what else for teh sony
09:09:56 <jwalck> so raising that topic again - keep working with fairphone!:)
09:10:01 <r0kk3rz> sledges: fingerprint support coming?
09:10:12 <fellfrosch> What can we expect in the next update to work?
09:10:15 * Robbster doesn't care about fingerprint support
09:10:27 <r0kk3rz> fellfrosch: theres a thing on TJC about that
09:10:32 <Robbster> is there anywhere where we can vote on priorities?
09:10:32 <chriadam_> sledges: is there anything that you can share on the Fairphone front?
09:10:40 <sledges> r0kk3rz: I think we might have some questions to fp sony guy in #jollamobile (RaYmAn) to unblock us :)
09:10:42 <ApBBB> btw does the camera record in 1080p60??
09:10:55 <sledges> chriadam_: no news that i know of atm
09:11:11 <chriadam_> ok, thanks
09:11:17 <fellfrosch> r0kk3rz: do you have a link?
09:11:18 <nh1402> speaking of fingerprint support, is there any plans to use it as the root password?
09:11:28 <r0kk3rz> oooh sounds good sledges
09:11:44 <jenix> nh1402: that would be terrifying
09:11:56 <jwalck> I'd pay for a prepared fairphone image even without the proprietary bits!
09:12:34 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: then install mals port?
09:12:38 <M4rtinK_phone_> personally I think hotspot support, bluetooth stabilisation and working compass
09:12:41 <nh1402> does the fingerprint sensor work in apps, ie. android apps?
09:13:04 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: I'll get a fairphone 2 from work before the end of october, I just might:)
09:13:06 <M4rtinK_phone_> look like stuff that really should be fixed soon
09:13:37 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: now we have open syspart stuff, in the community we can actually make productised releases like Xperia X
09:13:50 <M4rtinK_phone_> thats all regressions, not really new features :)
09:14:16 <objectifnul> nh402: no fingerprint in android for my bank-online app
09:14:17 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: ORLY? I need to spend more time digging here it would seem! syspart stuff?
09:14:34 <Robbster> M4rtinK_phone_: I can get behind that. BT before anything else.
09:14:35 <sledges> jwalck: nice workplace you got there who give FPs ;)
09:14:57 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: like using lvm+ext4 and cut down android instead of full android install, jolla-recovery .etc
09:14:57 <Robbster> M4rtinK_phone_: actually bt and hotspot are pretty evenly tied.
09:15:07 <ApBBB> sledges: how many cases of beer to have vesku (or whoever in charge) prefer the xz1 compact?
09:15:09 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: where is bt lacking? (i haven't been following)
09:15:11 <jwalck> sledges: I requested it and noone objected, they're cheaper than whatever integer samsung or apple are up to now!
09:15:15 <fellfrosch> pushing the camera app to the same level as with android camera apps apps (sharper images, 20 mp)
09:15:17 <Robbster> M4rtinK_phone_: what about supporting the 'tethering' app to give hotspot support in the mean time?
09:15:49 <sledges> ApBBB: you should prod community first, they can get an image ported ;)
09:15:57 <M4rtinK_phone_> IIRC it has been mention BT implementation is incomplete
09:16:06 <r0kk3rz> sledges: apparently theres some ldisc issues with simultaneously using wifi & bt
09:16:13 <jenix> sledges: From what I've read it seems that especially pairing with cars does not work reliably (or at all)
09:16:20 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: oh I see. from a astethic perspective I like the idea of cutting away old crap and starting with a clean slate set up to my own wishes
09:16:21 <ApBBB> sledges: official support is what i want
09:16:47 <M4rtinK_phone_> haven't really tried myself but know about a friend who is waiting for that to be fixed before buying an xperia
09:16:50 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: yeah more usable space, standard jolla userspace recovery stuff
09:17:07 <sledges> ApBBB: just saying that most probably their image will come first (and hopefully it won't be the last image;)
09:17:11 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: and just... inner beuty:)
09:17:13 <sledges> including many other sonys
09:17:22 <M4rtinK_phone_> IIRC he uses bt with his car a lot
09:17:33 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: theres no inner beauty... just hacks upon hacks :)
09:17:48 <sledges> jenix: from what i heard, in-car bt is ok, even gets contacts over; can you name a car model that doesn't play ball? is that on TJC?
09:17:57 <stephg> ApBBB: X Compact is very nearly nearly there
09:18:04 <stephg> ApBBB: for community I mean
09:18:11 <jenix> sledges: yes, there is a thread on TJC, let me get the link
09:18:20 <nh1402> sledges: Dacia Sandero
09:18:20 <ApBBB> sledges: x compact is old :/
09:18:28 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: you mean you cannot see the beauty in hacks upon hacks?:)
09:18:33 <ApBBB> xz1 compact would be perfect
09:18:35 <stephg> ApBBB: it's very small tho :D
09:18:37 <sledges> ApBBB: which part of chat above are you referring to?
09:18:57 <jenix> sledges: https://together.jolla.com/question/169519/sony-xperia-bluetooth/
09:18:58 <sledges> ApBBB: i am talking about xz1 or any other model, community champion porters won't take long to port ;)
09:19:06 <Mister_Magister> seems like nobody cares about motorola lol
09:19:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> do I understand it correctly that all the community work feeds back to the 'upstream' hardware adaptation right ?
09:19:13 <jenix> a lot of answers there mention issues with various cars
09:19:19 <nh1402> xz1 compact would need Oreo base ported first
09:19:23 <r0kk3rz> sledges: ApBBB well we need aosp7 hybris tree, but everything else should be fine
09:19:27 <sledges> #info Internet Sharing has a workaround, that I think will be included in releas notes for the time being:
09:19:31 <sledges> #link https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Build_and_Flash#Adaptation_Status
09:19:45 <ApBBB> sledges: the thing is that most ports miss stuff :/
09:19:47 <sledges> r0kk3rz: yes, but that's only few evenings away if you follow aosp6 example ;)
09:19:47 <M4rtinK_phone_> eq. community can help fix wha twill become the next official update
09:20:09 <sledges> ApBBB: xperia x hw adaptation is open source - 99% of stuff will work for other sony open devices
09:20:13 <r0kk3rz> sledges: and mals work on los14
09:20:33 <sledges> r0kk3rz: precisely, those his patches need to go on https://developer.sonymobile.com/open-devices/aosp-build-instructions/how-to-build-aosp-nougat-for-unlocked-xperia-devices/ and job's a gooden
09:21:00 <nh1402> but xz1 compact comes with the equivalent version of los15
09:21:09 <nh1402> which may not even exist yet
09:21:25 <nh1402> ok it does
09:21:32 <sledges> ;)
09:21:39 <r0kk3rz> its got 7.1 blobbies too
09:22:10 <r0kk3rz> maybe someone can build aosp for it and tell us how well it works
09:22:11 <sledges> i think aosp7 will unlock loads of more devices, and if someone's up for it, i'll be there to assist
09:22:35 <nh1402> more phones are starting to come with 6GB+ RAM
09:22:37 <ApBBB> sledges: have you ever tried running your HW with the open adreno driver?
09:22:45 <sledges> ApBBB: no, why?
09:22:50 <r0kk3rz> nice winter project for some pioneering community member
09:23:10 <ApBBB> sledges: more control over it i guess
09:23:34 <sledges> ApBBB: another exercise for our pure parts of community :)
09:24:00 <sledges> jenix: thanks for the link
09:24:15 <sledges> #info Bluetooth stabilisation is another well-sought feature:
09:24:16 <nh1402> more phones are starting to come with over 4GB RAM, how are Jolla going to handle this in the future?
09:24:17 <r0kk3rz> ApBBB: more control, less performance :)
09:24:21 <sledges> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/169519/sony-xperia-bluetooth/
09:24:36 <sledges> 1 min remaining
09:25:08 <ApBBB> r0kk3rz: when its open you can fix stuff like that
09:25:11 <sledges> nh1402: when such phone comes from customers, we'll switch to aarch64 ;)
09:25:32 <filip> I post a question about including the almost 100% languages in next update. WDYT?
09:26:00 <r0kk3rz> ApBBB: only one half is open though
09:26:09 <nh1402> sledges: with your collaboration with the Chinese market, that sounds like it'll only be a matter of time then.
09:26:10 <sledges> filip: leave to general discussion, which starts now
09:26:22 <sledges> #topic General discussion (15 min)
09:26:48 <sledges> filip: that's already under my radar, hopefully i'll have time to start actioning on it; but what about the fact those 100% languages won't have dictionary input suggestions?
09:27:39 <filip> sledges: I think that's still improvement as now we have to use 'unofficial' ways
09:27:41 <Mister_Magister> Jolla patched bluez5 for blueborne i just patched bluez4 now just every porter need to patch kernel for blueborne. Patchset for KRACK attacks is merged too. Nice jolla (thumbsup)
09:28:40 <jenix> Can someone tell me something about the new dependencies in SFOS X regarding sociald / the jolla-settings-account-extension-* packages?
09:28:47 <sledges> filip: also as well:
09:28:47 <sledges> 23:52 < martonmiklos> I am working on a presage based input prediction plugin
09:28:47 <filip> sledges: you can ask on tjc for what's missing
09:28:50 <sledges> 23:52 < martonmiklos> (the Xt9 is not available on ported devices and only the supported languages can be predicted)
09:28:56 <nh1402> speaking of bluez5, has there been any progress on getting that to work on 3.4 kernel devices, eg. Nexus 5?
09:29:25 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: if you want to backport the management interface in the kernel...
09:29:32 <r0kk3rz> otherwise, no.
09:29:45 <sledges> filip: is there dedicated TJC request to "officialise" 100% communuity languages?
09:30:01 <M4rtinK> support for prediction in more languages would be also really handy
09:30:10 <jenix> apparently, jolla-settings-account-extension-* now is required by the feature-jolla package which makes pkcon refuse to remove it (I want to free up unused features / room in the account list)
09:30:10 <M4rtinK> even is incomplete, etc.
09:30:20 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: iirc there is instructions on XDA on how to get bluez working in Android
09:30:34 <sledges> M4rtinK: join martonmiklos, as at the beginning it will certainly be hard for us to add it to existing solution (it's 3rd party development)
09:30:35 <M4rtinK> it's annoying how I loose any prediction at all when I switch to Czech keyboard
09:30:36 <r0kk3rz> sure, thats different though
09:30:53 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2640723
09:30:58 <filip> sledges: scattered: https://together.jolla.com/question/134467/official-announcement-translate-sailfish-os-elections-of-community-languages-linguists/ and https://together.jolla.com/question/134467/official-announcement-translate-sailfish-os-elections-of-community-languages-linguists/
09:31:00 <r0kk3rz> id expect they would only work with 3.10+ kernel
09:31:20 <sledges> filip: i know about those, a unified would be better (and clear image on votes, seen by all TJC people)
09:31:25 <eekkelund> r0kk3rz, what do you mean by this: 12:13 < r0kk3rz> jwalck: now we have open syspart stuff, in the community we can actually make productised releases like Xperia X
09:31:29 <sledges> also to track progress
09:31:58 <r0kk3rz> eekkelund: i explained it in a few posts after that
09:32:03 <sledges> eekkelund: flashable, without .zip and underlying lineages
09:32:17 <M4rtinK> sledges: I would like to help with this directly, but I'm afraid I'm already rather overcommited with helping to improving the navigation front
09:32:27 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: https://code.google.com/archive/p/aosp-bluez/
09:32:31 <M4rtinK> (eq. the most voted item on TJC, AFAIK)
09:32:36 <dcaliste> Follow up from last meeting, I've started a TJC post (https://together.jolla.com/question/167645/open-source-roadmap-from-the-community-point-of-view) which is listing the various closed parts in SFOS. I've tried to be fair and also mentioned all the OSS parts for the various fonctionalities. Hopefully it can give a better view to Jolla internally regarding the community expectations, especially in terms of potential contributions.
09:32:42 <eekkelund> r0kk3rz, I read but just didn't understand :) sledges, thanks :)
09:32:54 <M4rtinK> dcaliste: thanks!
09:33:14 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/bluetooth/bluez.git/tree/android/README
09:33:16 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: that link says what i just said, you need to backport the bluetooth kernel stack
09:33:24 <sledges> M4rtinK: indeed, i'm awaiting for modrana to do turn-by-turn :) offline navigation is somehow less relevant these years when roaming charges got dropped in EU
09:33:45 <dcaliste> I mention it here again, in case some people reading the log would like to have a look.
09:34:10 <mattikbk> I have seen the "updated apps are moved to the bottom" bug on my devices a few times
09:34:11 <filip> sledges: votes are a bit unfair as Slovene translation is 100% done apart 24 strings unrevieved but the user base is rather small
09:34:21 <M4rtinK> sledges: indeed, but it has also some privacy implications people might care about even when they have internet connection
09:35:00 <M4rtinK> sledges: in any case I'm working on that and it should be in the next modRana release
09:35:01 <eekkelund> tbr, how is tsaikka progressing? :)
09:35:15 <mattikbk> latest was yesterday when I updated Yalp store
09:35:36 <sledges> filip: at any rate, a separate TJC ticket would be welcome, rather than sinking within random comments; could you please do that instead (since you were about to raise question in another meeting anyway)? :)
09:35:36 <mattikbk> I had it in a folder and now it's at the bottom of apps
09:35:38 <M4rtinK> sledges: other main item is preliminary support for MapBox Open GL based map widget Rinigius recently ported to Sailfish OS
09:35:57 <M4rtinK> (a magnificent piece of work BTW!)
09:36:15 <stephg> M4rtinK: yeah that looks really shiny
09:36:19 <tbr> eekkelund: I'm happy to discuss any public open source things. I won't comment on anything else.
09:36:24 <sledges> M4rtinK: wow, so after OSM Scout Server he's already onto one more project!:)
09:36:32 <filip> sledges: I'll do it for Slovene. I'll see for others
09:37:08 <eekkelund> tbr, oh sorry I thought it is open source :)
09:37:24 <sledges> filip: there is a huge request from others, could you please do generic ticket? it won't be vote-based, it's just to be visible in TJC questions list; all 100% languages will get officialised once i get to it
09:37:58 <sledges> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/167645/open-source-roadmap-from-the-community-point-of-view
09:37:58 <filip> sledges: sounds reasonable. I'll do it!
09:38:01 <sledges> dcaliste: one hardware adaptation is now opensourced :)
09:38:05 <jenix> mattikbk: so it was not only me imagine it :) I couldn't reproduce it as I have no updates currently, but maybe this is interesting for jpetrell
09:38:19 <M4rtinK> sledges: he is crazy fast
09:39:12 <M4rtinK> sledges: he also did some work in improving text to speech support on Sailfish OS & I've seen him looking at predictive input recently as well
09:39:32 <dcaliste> sledges: yes, people more aware of hardware adaptations should modify the wiki entry.
09:39:37 <M4rtinK> sledges: he would be even faster if he would not have to hack around platform limitations on regular basis :)
09:40:01 <sledges> dcaliste: ah i read again your post, i meant xperia x officially opensource, but i know what you mean by hw stuffs for other devices too
09:40:43 <M4rtinK> (he even had to use custom GCC6 to build the MapBox GL widget as the default GCC is too ancient & no update is in sight...)
09:41:25 <sledges> M4rtinK: we'll always have obstacles :) (/me remembers once had to work on dev board with no newer than 2.1.2 kernel:)
09:42:30 <sledges> I've been asked by you last month to talk with sailors about way community can help (we discussed bounty incentives here etc); well, I've spoken about having more caldav-style meeting like chriadam_ did and the seed has been planted, let's see what grows out :)
09:43:04 <sledges> community could help with money, but money can't buy time, so bounty approach is not ok :)
09:43:11 <jenix> sledges: thanks, great to hear. Let's hope for the best :)
09:43:12 <dcaliste> sledges: thanks for pushing this.
09:43:38 <sledges> unless it's crowdfunding 10k like jpetrell said :D
09:43:57 <sledges> wrap-up time
09:44:06 <M4rtinK> sledges: sounds good & kinda reminds me of the Special Interest Groups we have in Fedora (even though those are 100% community based)
09:44:08 <sledges> #topic Next meeting time and date (5min)
09:44:19 <sledges> M4rtinK: nice name! :)
09:44:28 <sledges> can we move to Thursdays?
09:44:33 <M4rtinK> sledges: that's really isn't that much if many people take part
09:45:05 <sledges> 2nd November, 9 GMT (it will be daylight saving time thingy kicking in)
09:45:28 <jenix> M4rtinK:  true, but on the other hand not every feature is wanted by everybody
09:45:52 <nh1402> I apologise again for being a bit of a $%^& earlier
09:46:05 <sledges> any +1s on 2017-11-02 0900 GMT ?
09:46:17 <sledges> (thursday, not furzeday)
09:46:17 <stephg> fine by me
09:46:18 <Mister_Magister> whatever +!
09:46:21 <Mister_Magister> +1
09:46:38 <nh1402> shouldn't we stick with UTC, even though in this case it'll be the same time
09:46:55 <sledges> nh1402: is what i meant, UTC :)
09:47:05 <Mister_Magister> nh1402: everything is outdated in sailfish so we have to ust gmt since it's outdated too
09:47:09 <sledges> i had a request from a sailor to have it thursdays, let's see if he/she delivers then :DD
09:47:10 <jenix> I'm a bit confused with the time, but I'll figure it out until then :) +1
09:47:12 <sledges> no pressure
09:47:41 <sledges> alrighty then, thanks all and let's row!
09:47:43 <sledges> #endmeeting