08:00:20 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 17th October 2019
08:00:20 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 17 08:00:20 2019 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
08:00:20 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:35 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2019-October/008889.html
08:00:47 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:01:04 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:01:13 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
08:02:20 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community member
08:02:37 <Venty> #info Martin Ebnöther, Community Member
08:02:42 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla
08:03:03 <Nico[m]> #info Nicolas, community member, new here
08:03:54 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community member
08:04:07 <Venemo> #info Timur Kristóf, developer and community member
08:04:27 <pasik> #info Pasi Karkkainen, community
08:04:58 <KeeperoftheKeys> #info Keeper of the Keys community member/dev
08:06:30 <Jaymzz> #topic Official stance on patches (10 min – asked by JacekJagosz)
08:06:32 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson, sailor @ Jolla
08:06:46 <Jaymzz> #info For years there have been hundreds of patches fixing bugs and improving the experience. Why aren't they (or the ideas) included into this opensource OS (that I know of)? 1: Are there licensing problems? 2: Would you be willing to officially embrace patches; which means, you would implement a few best or most suitable patches or their ideas into the main release (with agreement of the author)? They usually indicate what actual
08:06:46 <Jaymzz> SFOS users want from their devices. Some examples of patches: No home carousel - lets you close apps and dismiss notifications by swiping, which really suits SF gestures over buttons philosophy, Settings for messages layout, Silica mail - simple patch that removes white backgrounds from emails and makes them fit SF, Kids mode, or simple things like path to file in picture info (gallery).
08:07:15 <Jaymzz> #Link: https://openrepos.net/content/anig/kids-mode
08:07:32 <Jaymzz> #Link 2: https://openrepos.net/content/fravaccaro/patch-silicamail
08:07:47 <Jaymzz> #Link 3: https://openrepos.net/content/alina/patch-settings-messages-layout
08:08:01 <Jaymzz> #Link 4: https://openrepos.net/content/cornerman/patch-no-home-carousel
08:08:27 <Jaymzz> And here comes the answer we prepared
08:08:34 <Jaymzz> #info We don't have a process in general to take in community patches. However, we can evaluate the situation case by case. As long as the patches fix a real bug, we would definitely consider integrating them. The author would have to be willing to sign a CLA and potentially change the licence (e.g. we can't accept them if they're GPLv3 right now), and we might ask them to make some changes to better fit the OS. Bug fixes are separa
08:08:34 <Jaymzz> te to features. The existence of a feature patch doesn't necessarily mean it's something we can easily integrate into the OS, and often patches are, by their nature, not as robust or complete as the feature would need to be for integration. But if the community has particular needs, or there are bug-fix patches we can use, then we're really interested to do that. Please flag them up in these community meetings or on TJC so we're awa
08:08:34 <Jaymzz> re of them.
08:08:54 <flypig> # David Llewellyn-Jones - late sailor @ jolla
08:11:32 <Jaymzz> is JacekJagosz available? do you have anything to add? :)
08:13:17 <Jaymzz> I guess that's a no - so moving on
08:13:30 <Jaymzz> #topic Status update on assisting community with fingerprint support on community ports (5 min, asked by piggz)
08:13:41 <Jaymzz> #info In the past there has been positive words about helping the community bring fingerprint support to their devices, either with code or documentation. Is there any update on this initiative?
08:13:52 <Jaymzz> And here is the statement requested:
08:14:08 <Jaymzz> #info This is a difficult topic as fingerprint support is typically dependent on adaptation packages and those are ususally closed source and community can't build packages and we have no pipeline to build/provide such packages either. Manual tinkering on individual devices is of course possible by community, but we can't provide much help there.
08:14:23 <Jaymzz> piggz[m]: anything more to add? :)
08:16:56 <Jaymzz> Alright seems like none of the topic annoncers were available today
08:17:11 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
08:17:25 <Venemo> Jaymzz: with regards to the patches topic - I think we should outline a process on how someone can submit one to us
08:18:09 <Venemo> let's suppose there is an annoying bug, and a patch that fixes it. what would the author of the patch have to do to get his patch in?
08:18:18 <piggz[m]> sorry, here
08:18:22 <Venemo> I think this deserves some thingking and discussion
08:18:27 <piggz[m]> i didnt identify!
08:18:34 <flypig> Venemo, I agree, it'd be good to have something concrete.
08:18:37 <piggz[m]> i was taling to myself!
08:18:39 <KeeperoftheKeys> Sorry can I just grab back to the previous topic - a lot of stuff that Jolla treats as "closed source" is actually BSD licensed (sticking any propriatary license on a QML file that anyone can read is kind of dumb), it is retardedly hard to even get the attention of Jolla engineers to a useful patch let alone get it in there.
08:19:09 <KeeperoftheKeys> for instance back in the day I made the calendar detect the first day of the week based on locale
08:19:11 <Jaymzz> Venemo: absolutely. we can discuss that internally and get back here with the results? :)
08:19:18 <piggz[m]> it would be nice to get maybe documentation of the architecture so we could implement support in the open
08:19:20 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: I think that's what the person who raised this topic wanted to address
08:19:21 <Nico[m]> I think in general the process to contribute seems to be a bit hard/not that well documented. Contributing patches via TJC seems to be a bit indirect. Mailing list or opening a pull request on a repository would be alot easier, if that would be doable?
08:19:43 <piggz[m]> what are the closed parts doing, what do they talk to etc
08:19:46 <Venemo> Jaymzz: sure, but I'd like to hear an idea from the community as well.
08:19:47 <KeeperoftheKeys> it did make it in after I made enough noise, but I have never tried doing a similar fix for the clock... too much work
08:20:01 <KeeperoftheKeys> (not the patch but getting it to jolla)
08:20:19 <Venemo> yeah, I think we all get it that this is painful right now
08:20:31 <Venemo> so KeeperoftheKeys in your opinion what would be the right way to deal with it?
08:22:09 <flypig> It can't be as simple as creating a PR for the closed components, because the repos aren't open.
08:22:16 <flypig> Unfortunately.
08:22:20 <Nico[m]> Since the QML files are already effectively open source, could you guys host a public repo, where the community could contribute to those files? They also seem to be parts that get patched, as far as I'm aware.
08:22:36 <KeeperoftheKeys> It seems to me that all QML files that anyone can change as is should be treated as OSS and put in a git to which the community can then do pull requests of fixes
08:22:46 <ExTechOp> To Jolla: in a previous meeting, the SIP integration question was punted to the community, have there been any potential takers? https://together.jolla.com/question/415/sip-voip-native-integration/
08:22:48 <flypig> Nico[m], that's an interesting idea.
08:23:20 <KeeperoftheKeys> the binary blobs hidden behind the qml may still be closed but all the UI stuff that we try to fix and is anyhow world r/w should also be easy to contribute for community
08:23:25 <flypig> KeeperoftheKeys, it's important to distinguish between the source being readable, and them being open source. Anyone can read them, but not copy them.
08:24:23 <KeeperoftheKeys> true, but most of these QML files have BSD headers and not some closed license
08:25:29 <flypig> A bunch of them (at least) are proprietary, so any process has to work with that too.
08:25:53 <Venemo> Nico[m]: I don't personally think that it's feasible to just toss all QML files into a singular repo
08:26:21 <pasik> any news about when we get to play with sailfishos 3.2 EA? :)
08:27:23 <Jaymzz> pasik: It's closer than you think :)
08:27:26 <Venemo> so in case of the packages that aren't currently hosted publicly, I don't think a pull request is the way to go. however, as an alternative, how about sending the patches in email on the sailfish devel ML?
08:27:50 <Venemo> again this is just a personal idea, not something official. just trying to brainstorm here.
08:28:30 <KeeperoftheKeys> TBH as far as propriatary/OSS goes I think you would gain much more from being more OSS then you would lose and these files that genuinely are cleartext for anyone to read could just be released OSS, but that is a different contention point with the community where we want to see the OSS claim become more substantial
08:28:45 <Nico[m]> That could probably work too, although it is a lot harder to keep track of. It also has a bit of a higher barrier, but that may also be a good thing
08:29:57 <KeeperoftheKeys> from my past experience sending by mail only works after you drop a bomb during a community meeting... mail seems to be a black hole until you tell Jaymzz and the other sailors present here that you sent a mail
08:30:08 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: I don't think anyone in this channel disagrees with you but unfortunately it's not up to me to decide.
08:30:17 <dcaliste> Sending patches to the mailing list is a first entry point, but how to handle the (long) process of review, back and forth with developpers to get the patch integrated ? Doing it on a mailing list would be a pain and a huge entry barrier.
08:30:40 <Venemo> well, that's why I'm asking for ideas dcaliste
08:31:08 <flypig> If a patch contributor has to sign the CLA anyway, maybe they could be given access to the repos?
08:31:16 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: The workload usually prioritises the email-answering-scheme in the company. It also depends who you send the email to. But hey at least we have these meeting for friendly reminders ;)
08:31:40 <Nico[m]> I agree with KeeperoftheKeys, that being more open would probably help both sides. My main pain point currently is the old GCC version, and if I could actually build the whole base system, I could consider helping with upgrading it. But I know, this is an old discussion where you sadly can't change much, it seems
08:31:55 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: I think you can ping us here on irc if you feel that you didn't get a response
08:33:01 <ExTechOp> Repeat: To Jolla: in a previous meeting, the SIP integration question was punted to the community, have there been any potential takers? https://together.jolla.com/question/415/sip-voip-native-integration/
08:33:25 <abranson> Nico[m]: there's a gcc update PR waiting right now
08:33:39 <dcaliste> Venemo, indeed, but I'm afraid that there is not much better solution than using a repo and doing MRs. But I maybe not imaginative enough ;) Since the repos are closed and will stay like that for the forseeable future, I'm afraid that only the CLA route remains.
08:33:56 <KeeperoftheKeys> I guess I'll have a look at clock somewhere in the near future and attempt again... I also posted the change needed to modify search in the phone app to a TJC topic maybe I try to send that too
08:34:31 <Nico[m]> abranson: Nice, so this could be in the release after 3.2?
08:34:43 <KeeperoftheKeys> Either way it's extremely frustrating to constantly hear from you guys how you can't due to time constraints etc. and on the other hand you mae it so difficult for us to help
08:35:23 <abranson> ExTechOp: not seen any activity around SIP, but there's been a lot of voip audio work going on at the moment that might make it easier.
08:35:48 <ExTechOp> Okay, thanks.
08:35:56 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: yeah, I know :(
08:35:57 <abranson> Nico[m]: dunno, but it changes the outlook
08:37:43 <Jaymzz> Alright guys time is up for this one
08:37:48 <Nico[m]> Hm, gcc5++ would make it a lot easier for me to finish my matrix client for Sailfish. I guess I'll just wait again. I'm guessing there is nothing I could help with?
08:37:57 <Jaymzz> I'll wait a bit more
08:38:06 <flypig> Is there a way to partially mirror a git repo? Just the QML files and nothing else?
08:38:10 <Jaymzz> to see if there is a need to add more minutes :)
08:38:32 <KeeperoftheKeys> lol only now noticed we were in general discussion
08:38:52 <Venemo> Nico[m]: I think the gcc upgrade is on the table, there has been some talk about it not long ago
08:39:50 <KeeperoftheKeys> can I just ask one more question? Is there any news on Android 8 for Xperia X and are there plans to support a "high end" device, I really can't justify replacing my X with a 10 or an XA2 they are not better in any way just bulkier
08:40:01 <piggz[m]> well, im not having much luck with my/mobile connection!
08:40:18 <Nico[m]> flypig: Isn't the problem, that the QML files may be in multiple repositories @Jolla? They would probably need to bundle the files into a single commit on each release and push it to an open repository
08:41:17 <flypig> Well, I was thinking each of the internal repos could be 'forked' with just the QML into separate open repos.
08:41:22 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: Your first question will be answered very soon in a blog post. We usually don't announce things on the IRC meeting so I'd ask you to wait a little bit more. That also applies a little bit to your second question.
08:41:46 <KeeperoftheKeys> I've been opening the blog regularly to see if there is news.
08:41:48 <flypig> But yes, a big bundle commit each release might be possible.
08:42:02 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: why is the 10 and XA2 not better than the X?
08:42:18 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: but in general the devices that we support and are going to support are basically out in the public :)
08:42:23 <Nico[m]> flypig: That may be doable with a filter branch or stuff, but you would need to keep it manually up to date with a script,I guess.
08:42:51 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: We have a few blog posts queued up. Will be released when the time is right :)
08:43:06 <Venemo> Nico[m]: yeah, I think that's what flypig means
08:43:07 <flypig> Nico[m], yes, your approach sounds easier.
08:43:10 <KeeperoftheKeys> Xperia X was a top device in it's time XA2 and 10 are midrangers, they are barely different in specs only bigger screens (and the X actually has a nicer screen)
08:43:52 <Venemo> I think it's a nice idea
08:43:55 <KeeperoftheKeys> also benchmarks of all 3 devices are similar (X actually outperforms others iirc)
08:44:37 <dcaliste> flypig: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31411830/git-mirroring-to-github-and-filtering-private-files is worth a look to miror and filter a git repo. If it's not too much pain to maintain…
08:44:48 <KeeperoftheKeys> but I do have to admit that I would love to have a phone the size of my N9 again... makes 1-handed gestures that much easier
08:45:32 <Nico[m]> That is the reason I'm using the X Compact. It at least gets close to the N9
08:45:36 <flypig> dcaliste, thanks for that!
08:46:07 <KeeperoftheKeys> https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=7948&idPhone2=8986&idPhone3=9353#f5122,*,*
08:47:26 <KeeperoftheKeys> xperia 5 would be better' though still large :/
08:47:38 <dcaliste> flypig, I don't how it's doable in practice, just searching a bit. I can try to see how much heavy it is to keep in sync and ensure no leaking.
08:47:41 <KeeperoftheKeys> https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=7948&idPhone2=8986&idPhone3=9840#f5122,*,*
08:47:57 <flypig> It looks like a trade-off. BFG-repo-cleaner requires constant maintenance, but a big dump of QML files to a repo is harder to integrate into the broader dev process.
08:48:18 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: The process of choosing phones to support is much more complicated than just looking at what's available and going with it. There are many factors going in, therefore we can't just choose any phone that's on the shelf.
08:49:14 <dcaliste> Indeed, that would be great to have a public repo with the BSD parts. But I'm not sure how much part that really represent. I was thinking that most QML parts were proprietary anyway (readable, but proprietary).
08:49:48 <flypig> Technically, even the proprietary parts could be stored in an open repo. Whether it would fly in practice...
08:49:54 <KeeperoftheKeys> I understand that, I hope that either the next phone you choose is something I can justify replacing the X with (unlike th XA2 and the 10) or that you will allow us to purchase Android 8 support on our X
08:50:29 <Jaymzz> 10 min overtime now, going for 5 more
08:50:38 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: you have a point there, but other people could say that they can't afford or don't want to invest in a pricier phone.
08:50:49 <Nico[m]> I second what KeeperoftheKeys said
08:51:13 <Nico[m]> It doesn't need to be pricier, it just needs to fit my hand
08:51:38 <dcaliste> flypig: technically yes, but I can imagine the face of the legal dept. if one ask them nicely if it's possible to put the (already readable) proprietary parts on a public place…
08:51:53 <flypig> dcaliste, yes :)
08:52:17 <Venemo> heheh
08:52:17 <abranson> suddenly they aren't readable anymore :D
08:52:24 <vknecht> next phone should be Xperia 1, shouldn't it ? :-) https://developer.sony.com/posts/xperia-1-added-to-sonys-open-devices-program/
08:52:36 <KeeperoftheKeys> I am also absolutely not jumping to shell out ~700 EUR for a new phone I got my X second hand on eBay for $180, that being said I also have 0 interest in shelling out 200-300 EUR to replace my X with a device that is anywhere from no better to worse (depending on what features you look at/care about) then my X just to get Android 8 support
08:53:08 <dcaliste> abranson, indeed, that's why sometimes it may be wiser not to ask :/
08:53:48 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: so you want us to support a higher end device that you can replace your X with but you don't actually want to pay for such a device.
08:54:09 <KeeperoftheKeys> xperia 1 is also an option, really hoping they'll do a compact again but seems unsafe to hold my breath for it
08:54:24 <Jaymzz> 1 min left guys
08:54:54 <KeeperoftheKeys> As said I would actually prefer you allow us to purchase Android 8 for the X
08:55:35 <KeeperoftheKeys> but if you are not going to do that then I'd rather have a device that is an actual upgrade and not the same sh*t just larger slower and with a worse screen
08:55:40 <Jaymzz> Alright as I really need to go to the bathroom, I have to move on as the time is up with 15 min over.
08:55:57 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date (5 min)
08:56:02 <KeeperoftheKeys> thanks Jaymzz Venemo and everyone else!
08:56:16 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on October 31st 2019 at 08:00 UTC
08:56:28 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: anytime! :) sorry I had to cut it
08:56:59 <KeeperoftheKeys> No decision yet on meetings that will be easier for Americas people to attend?
08:57:04 <KeeperoftheKeys> NP
08:57:24 <Nico[m]> Thank you everyone for the discussion and answers!
08:57:28 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: not yet unfortunately :( but we can also have that as a topic or a poll to see how many would want that
08:57:51 <Jaymzz> Thanks everyone! It was great discussions! Cheers and see you in 2 weeks
08:57:55 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting