09:00:30 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 20th of February 2020
09:00:30 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 20 09:00:30 2020 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
09:00:30 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
09:00:42 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2020-February/009069.html
09:00:49 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
09:01:01 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
09:01:09 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
09:01:15 <piggz[m]> #info piggz community porter
09:01:17 <Venemo> #info Timur Kristóf, sailor @ Jolla
09:01:33 <Nico[m]> #info Nico, community
09:06:05 <Jaymzz> Not so many today it seems. Moving on
09:06:18 <Jaymzz> #topic Announcing a new meeting room (10 min)
09:06:26 <Jaymzz> #info As our meetings are solely about Sailfish OS, we believe that it would be better to move these meetings to a new room called #sailfishos-meeting from a month from now. The #mer-meeting room will still be available to be used by the community. We believe that this follows our branding much better and avoids confusion for newer members. At the same time, it will automatically clean the meetings from unused accounts and gives us
09:06:26 <Jaymzz> a better understanding of how many people actively attend these meetings. There will be email reminders sent out on this topic before the next meeting.
09:07:10 <Jaymzz> #info Our new meeting room is #sailfishos-meeting. Please add yourself there!
09:07:25 <Nico[m]> Can that room already be joined? Otherwise I will forget this :D
09:07:35 <abranson> yes it's been around for a while
09:07:47 <Nico[m]> Alright, thanks :D
09:07:58 <Jaymzz> Nico[m]: Yeah just go ahead and join. I'll send reminders about this and will have it on TJC too
09:09:19 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - late sailor @ Jolla
09:09:32 <Jaymzz> hu, I guess 10 min was too much for this one :D I expected more people around today actually and thought there would be a discussion around this :P
09:09:54 <Jaymzz> huh* that was!
09:09:57 <Venemo> I just suggest to add this info about the new channel to the topic of this channel
09:11:24 <Nico[m]> I don't really see, that there would be anything to discuss. I think it is a reasonable change, but maybe you could announce the changed room in this room for the first 2 meetings in the new room or so (sometimes people forget to read the topic)
09:11:44 <Venemo> good idea
09:12:34 <Jaymzz> Venemo: of course, that will be done. Also I will still be active on this channel, seeing that everyone finds their way from the next meeting.
09:12:55 <Nico[m]> Sounds good
09:12:55 <Jaymzz> Nico[m]: exactly :)
09:12:58 <Venemo> cool
09:13:33 <Jaymzz> Alright moving on
09:13:38 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (20 min)
09:13:51 <Jaymzz> Let's see how much discussion there is with so few people :)
09:14:55 <Nico[m]> I think I got all my answers last week, still eagerly waiting for gcc8 :3
09:15:20 <Venemo> I was hoping that Thaodan will be around and I could ask him if he managed to get the help he needed from Alin w.r.t to his efforts on the new android version
09:16:00 <flypig> I also thought there might be another discussion about GPLv3 on the cards, but I think neither dcaliste nor schmittlauch[m] are here today.
09:16:32 <Jaymzz> It's weird, I sent a reminder email too a couple of days ago...
09:16:58 <Thaodan> hey im here just bit late
09:17:19 <Thaodan> #info Thaodan community developer
09:17:19 <Nico[m]> Speaking of the devil ;p
09:17:31 <Jaymzz> :D
09:18:20 <Thaodan> I send an email yesterday to Alin and waiting now for a response.
09:18:35 <Venemo> okay, cool
09:19:12 <dcaliste_> #info Damien Caliste, community, sorry being late
09:19:36 <Thaodan> In generall there needs to be more effort or another device
09:20:07 <Thaodan> It would be great to have adaptions be updated much easier to newer Android versions
09:20:41 <Jaymzz> dcaliste_: Thaodan: just FYI, our first topic was about a new meeting room from next time. It is called #sailfishos-meeting and we will have our bi-weekly meetings hosted there instead. You can already add yourself to that channel.
09:21:25 <dcaliste_> Thank Jaymzz, I was indeed reading the logs to see what I missed. Thanks for the reminder.
09:21:33 <Jaymzz> cheers :)
09:22:49 <Nico[m]> So no discussion about GPLv3?
09:22:51 <ExTechOp> Late arrival: Otto Mäkelä, community
09:23:01 <Thaodan> Thanks for the reminder now the name fits better
09:23:08 <dcaliste_> Flypig, I still didn't take the time to properly prepare the GPL discussion and packaging proposition, sorry.
09:23:26 <Nico[m]> I think today is the late day :D
09:23:48 <ljo> Jaymzz: Is it beneficial to send intro info under other topics? I have always lurked without sending if I missed the topic.
09:23:57 <flypig> dcaliste_, no worries. I'm interested to know how it will work out, but I didn't mean to apply pressure ;)
09:24:49 <Jaymzz> ljo: Yeah it sorta gives an idea of how many are present. Of course it's not obligatory but it's nice to know the audience even if they're lurking :)
09:25:24 <dcaliste_> For the sailor to give a grounded answer and have things also to show to the hierarchy, I would like to have a POC already available, like a proper packaged GPLv3 GnuPG package for instance.
09:26:05 <ljo> #info Leif-Jöran Olsson, community developer
09:26:06 <dcaliste_> With the right Provide: (or whatever field rpm requires), checks that it's replacing properly the official mer-core package...
09:26:29 <flypig> It would be good to have a concrete example to work with.
09:27:21 <dcaliste_> Indeed, that's my target. But I need to work it and always get diverted by something else to look into up to now.
09:27:30 <Jaymzz> ljo: btw I assume that you're coming to Foss North? :)
09:28:57 <ljo> Jaymzz: I do. I sent in 4 cfp proposals of which 2 are SailfishOS related. :)
09:29:13 <Jaymzz> Sweet!! See you there :)
09:29:50 <flypig> ljo, can you let us know what they are?
09:30:16 <dcaliste_> Jaymzz, about the new channel, it's not listed on http://merproject.org/logs/ ? Is it intentional or has it been forgotten ? After all, #sailfishos chennel is listied there.
09:31:43 <Jaymzz> dcaliste_: it'll be taken care of :)
09:31:58 <dcaliste_> Thanks Jaymzz.
09:32:09 <Jaymzz> Anytime!
09:32:15 <Hummer12007> the telegram bridge should be updated too
09:32:25 <Jaymzz> Hummer12007: Yeah
09:32:35 <ljo> flypig: Sure, 'Full unicode text prediction for SailfishOS' and 'Collabora Online in SailfishOS'
09:33:30 <Nico[m]> Sounds like an awesome collection of topics!
09:33:58 <Jaymzz> 20 minutes is over for this one. I'll give it a couple more minutes as the previous topic was cut short
09:34:01 <flypig> ljo, great, and congrats on getting them accepted :) You know I'm interested in the latter particularly. Will there be video footage online?
09:34:42 <dcaliste_> ljo, looking great and interesting, will keep a look if presentations are available after the event.
09:35:59 <ljo> flypig: They are still technically proposals, but I can't imagine both are rejected.
09:36:48 <flypig> ljo, apologies, my congratulations were premature. But you can save them for when they're not :)
09:36:54 <Venemo> dcaliste_: I think I'm out of the loop, what's your idea with regards to GPLv3?
09:37:32 <Jaymzz> ljo: that's awesome. I'm working on bringing more than 1 sailor there and even possibly have a talk or something. Working it out with Johan :) fingers crossed we're not too late to the party
09:39:14 <dcaliste_> Venemo, my idea is for Jolla to officially package and provide up to date GPLv3 versions of packages that are currently limited to ancient GPLv2 versions. These v3 versions would not be installed by default of course to comply with the licence, but only available for people with root access to the device. Hopefully with some rpm well defined spec, they may replace seamlessly the ancient v2 versions on device.
09:39:42 <Venemo> ah uh
09:39:46 <Venemo> interesting idea
09:39:56 <ljo> Jaymzz: Please put in some positive words for my suggested talks then too ;)
09:40:17 <piggz[m]> if jolla continues to rely soly on gplv2/packages, does it not risk becoming very out of date?
09:40:21 <M4rtinK> What are the actual issues preventing the GPLv3 versions to.be used by default ?
09:40:24 <Jaymzz> ljo: absolutely!
09:40:53 <M4rtinK> like, is Jolla selling some tivoized hardware to third parties or something ?
09:40:56 <piggz[m]> m4rtink: +1
09:40:59 <dcaliste_> M4rtinK the business users without root access and no way to replace the gplv3 bits as they need.
09:41:05 <dcaliste_> (my understanding)
09:41:57 <Nico[m]> M4rtinK: Some companies lock down their devices, so that their employees can't modify the device. They are not comfortable with the GPLv3, as it requires you being able to change the software on your devices, altough many argue that doesn't apply to company owned hardware
09:42:06 <Thaodan> Also they are affected by more bugs
09:42:09 <M4rtinK> I still don't see the issue - in this case the user is the company getting the device, not an employee withou root access
09:42:12 <Nico[m]> (my understanding as well)
09:42:31 <Thaodan> Nico[m]: thats wrong a company device is not their device
09:42:49 <M4rtinK> Nico[m]: that soubds like really stretching the GPLv3 definition to me
09:42:55 <dcaliste_> I think, we should (as community) start thinking that Jolla (for good reason or not) will not move to GPLv3 by default, reason grounded or not.
09:43:02 <Nico[m]> Yeah, the issue is companies being uncomfortable with that, I don't think it is an actual issue
09:43:02 <Thaodan> If that would be the case REL wouldn't work as a client device
09:43:10 <dcaliste_> So the idea is to find a convenient solution for the community.
09:43:28 <Thaodan> For everyone
09:43:39 <M4rtinK> I think they will have to do somethink about it - I don't think it is sustainable over the long term
09:43:40 <Thaodan> the issue is ticking time bomb
09:43:49 <Thaodan> *is a
09:43:51 <piggz[m]> yup
09:44:33 <M4rtinK> yeah, RHEL has a lot of GPLv3 software and I am not aware of people hitting issues with it
09:44:42 <dcaliste_> Thaodan, M4rtinK, I fully agree, but we cannot decide for them and past would make me think that it will not change and we won't convince them. We need to find a solution for ourselves.
09:44:50 <Thaodan> Maybe get in conctact with the fsf about the concearns of these companies
09:44:54 <Nico[m]> I would prefer SailfishOS moving to providing the newer GPLv3 versions by default, but I can understand, that there may be an issue convincing some clients
09:45:54 <M4rtinK> well, this would not be the first "we told you so" by the community, where Jolla pretended a long time things are fine only to do what the community suggested in the end
09:46:13 <M4rtinK> Is someone even maintainng
09:46:33 <M4rtinK> the old versions ? other than some minimal patches ?
09:46:52 <M4rtinK> AFAIK most upstreams dropped support of those long ago
09:47:44 <flypig> I don't think you'll find any disagreement about the technical issues. But finding a solution for a transition, as dcaliste_ is proposing, would be a good way forward.
09:47:53 <Jaymzz> just FYI we are way over time on this one so try to wrap it up :)
09:48:00 <flypig> (my personal opinion)
09:48:41 <M4rtinK> yeah, its one of the ways forward I guess, still looks like a waste of resources to maintain things twice like this...
09:49:43 <flypig> M4rtinK, sure, that may be true, but it adds weight to the argument for GPLv3 as well, I think.
09:50:03 <Thaodan> Maybe get some that can make the situation more reliable for companies like fsf lawyers
09:50:03 <M4rtinK> yeah, thats true
09:50:21 <Venemo> M4rtinK: we don't sell tivoized devices. however some businesses are very scared about the GPLv3 for various reasons. for example, w.r.t your understanding of "it's the company who gets the device" - this is legally unclear who the 'user' of the device is (the company or the employee), and people are not willing to risk getting into legal problems because of this.
09:50:29 <abranson> which packages are we talking about?
09:50:42 <Venemo> that is just my personal understanding / opinion of course and not an official answer by any means
09:50:53 <dcaliste_> abranson GnuPG would be first to come to my mind.
09:51:00 <dcaliste_> And related like gpgme.
09:51:18 <Thaodan> Venemo: did Jolla contact the fsf on this?
09:51:44 <Thaodan> gpgme is gnupg
09:51:47 <M4rtinK> I think Bash as well ? and various shell tools (df, du, etc.) so binutils I guess ?
09:51:56 <dcaliste_> Thaodan, I'm afraid, it's not Jolla themselves but the paying customers that need to be convinced.
09:52:14 <ljo> flypig: Thanks, btw I received your email after fosdem, but it has been crazy busy with traveling and accounting/auditing of a lot of associations.
09:52:16 <dcaliste_> Thaodan, I know, I was speaking of packages.
09:52:18 <abranson> for things like shell utils, there's been an ongoing project to use busybox by default on devices, then upgrade the main version to gpl3
09:52:31 <Venemo> I'm not a lawyer, so I dunno. however it's not Jolla that is scared of the GPLv3
09:52:38 <flypig> ljo, no worries. When you get the chance, I'm still interested :)
09:52:41 <Thaodan> dcaliste_: yes but the FSF could publish better info on this that help the customers of jolla
09:53:23 <M4rtinK> Venemo: I've noticed that in the Mer Gitlab activity - well, that's an interesting solution
09:53:34 <Jaymzz> Let's wrap this up in the next 5 minutes :)
09:53:39 <Venemo> M4rtinK: what do you mean?
09:54:01 <M4rtinK> Venemo: but not a fan of busybox in general, having not really good experience with it on tje N900 and some Android devices
09:54:31 <abranson> it is a well established workaround for gpl3 on embedded devices though
09:54:38 <M4rtinK> using something not GPLv3 by default/for customers so you can update an alternative to a GPLv3 version
09:55:31 <abranson> i'm not sure if it's possible to switch to the gpl3 versions on device yet without lots of package complaints. might need some specific provides/requires tricks
09:55:37 <M4rtinK> still seems like waste of resources to me personally, comming from distro building/maintenance background
09:56:00 <abranson> things are different in embedded
09:56:12 <dcaliste_> abranson: that's the proposal. And I need to dig it further to actually propose a working example with those tricks.
09:56:19 <Nico[m]> I think this will be a bigger topic in the next meeting :D
09:56:36 <Jaymzz> 2 min ;)
09:56:42 <M4rtinK> Nico[m]: +1
09:57:11 <Venemo> M4rtinK: the N900 was what, 10+ years ago? I don't think that's an accurate impression of what busybox is now
09:58:24 <abranson> i guess for gpg, if we could completely avoid including that in the images then it could be upgraded. do you know where else it's used?
09:58:57 <M4rtinK> Venemo: good point
09:59:37 <Jaymzz> I shall move on in a few seconds guys. This went waaaay over time, albeit with good discussions!
10:00:12 <abranson> oh, lots of places :(
10:01:25 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date (5 min)
10:01:52 <Jaymzz> So in 2 weeks we have planning days at Jolla, therefore the next meeting will be held in a month from now.
10:01:56 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on March 19th 2020 at 09:00 UTC
10:02:35 <Jaymzz> So remember, it will be on #sailfishos-meeting
10:02:45 <Jaymzz> But as said earlier, I'll send reminders etc :)
10:03:23 <flypig> See you then/there :)
10:03:27 <ExTechOp> Bye!
10:03:30 <Jaymzz> Alright. ending the meeting. Minutes will be sent as usual :)
10:03:32 <Jaymzz> Thanks all!
10:03:36 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting