Tuesday, 2012-05-22

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Stskeepsmorn o/08:50
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rcg1Stskeeps: alright, you got me convinced, osc is a great tool :)09:21
Stskeepsgood ;)09:21
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SageStskeeps: nemo syn in 10mins right?09:49
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iekkuhmmm, trying to verify bug 6910:05
iekkubut to me the description doesn't tell so much10:05
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dcthangit looks like a new package than a bug10:57
dcthangbut perigrine doesn't have video10:58
dcthangit comes from the lack of codec or something of Mer I guess10:59
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the-bossphaeron lbt sage stskeeps SR#4889 waiting for review at https://build.pub.meego.com//request/show/488912:54
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iekkuhmmm i'm retesting Bug 122 - Items should have a context menu for easy use13:07
iekkucontext sensitive menu allows only to delete or view detail13:08
iekkuwondering if i should reopen this or file a new bug for 'move' and 'copy'13:08
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Sageiekku: I think there is bugs for those as well already13:12
iekkuSage, you are right13:20
iekkuverifying the 122 and adding comment about 123 :)13:21
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iekkucouldn't retest these: https://bugs.nemomobile.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=RELEASED&product=Applications&product=Hardware%20adaptation&product=Middleware&product=MTF%20UX13:30
iekku112 isn't yet available, but if someone have free time and devices, please retest 10 and 10513:30
Sageiekku: it isn't?13:34
Sageiekku: should be13:34
iekkui only read your comment about pending...13:35
iekkuit's there and working13:36
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Sagesry :)13:42
iekkuhmmm, i think i will take a walk now13:51
iekkunice weather and haven't been feeling sick today13:52
iekkugood time to leave home, in the front of the strees is discgolfpark's opening starting13:52
iekkui might get annoyed...13:52
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Atariiinstalling Nemo on my N900 for the first time, be prepared for a bombard of questions...19:51
tadzikhave an appropriate amount of fun :)19:51
Stskeepsalright, dont be surprised noone answers though, late evening for many who's in the know :)19:52
Atariisure thing, thanks :)19:52
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iekkuAtarii, if you follow the introduction and have correct type of sd you shouldn't face any problems19:57
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rzrStskeeps, http://www.storyofstuff.com i guess you know about that video ?20:18
rzrStskeeps, donno what is your upcoming article but that one could be linked :)20:19
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rzs19well, atm i'm using maemo and i'm happy, couse i have a real linux distribution on my smartphone. so will mer, nemo, or how you guys call it, use only html5 and js, or will there be support for native x11 applications?20:36
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rzs19becouse there is already tizen, boot to gecko, webos(i think is also html5 and js?).20:38
wmaronemer supports Qt, but support for html5/js applications is highly likely via Qt20:40
wmaronewhether it matters for nemo depends on their being devices that can run it20:41
rcg1btw, what is the bluetooth status of nemo/mer for n950/n9?20:41
rzs19what if i'm a power user and want to start another Xorg, in maemo i had some problem with that. html and js application are slower than native apps.20:41
wmaronestart another Xorg?20:42
wmaronewhat you can do with Mer, on a device that is running it, depends on what the device vendor has put in place in terms of user-exposed capabilites20:42
rcg1are "just" some adaptations missing or is it a major endeavor?20:43
rzs19something like: Xorg -query and sitting on my couce connected to my XDMCP Server.20:43
wmaroneand yes they're slower than native apps, that's why I don't care20:43
wmaronercg1: explain?20:43
rcg1wmarone: on n950 bluetooth does not seem to work20:44
wmaroneah, I don't know about bluetooth on the N95020:44
rcg1wmarone: ic, and n9?20:44
rzs19i'm hopping for somthing that is not based upon html5/js, becouse its slow and i need my cpu and ram for more :)20:44
wmaronercg1: nor that, I experiment with Mer on a handful of devices, mostly x8620:45
rcg1dunno actually how similar n9 and n950 are hw-wise20:45
rcg1wmarone: ah ic :)20:45
rzs19do you have tried t odevelop a layoutmanager, or h-split/v-split in js for html? its anything than performant if you create complex application.20:45
wmaronerzs19: right, which is why, as I said, I'm not interested in html5 development20:45
wmaroneif I do anything with Tizen, for instance, it'll be via EFL if possible20:46
rzs19so i can write native qt, or gtk applications for "mer" ?20:46
rzs19i want to to see the direction, what will be used.20:47
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wmaronerzs19: well, a vendor can adopt Mer and use whatever they want21:09
wmaronewhat's exposed to you depends on what they do21:09
wmaroneQt is included by default21:09
rcg1rzs19: afaik gtk is not included by default21:10
rcg1imho qt, in general, provides the more promising long-time perspective21:11
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rcg1rzs19: btw, what do you mean with "native"?21:12
rcg1"native" like in, close to the hw, os using c/c++, or native like only using a single toolkit qt vs. gtk?21:13
rzs19i want to be able to choose my language and my toolkit on my own, or optional: i don'twnat to be foreced to use html5 and js ;)21:15
rzs19native like c/c++ :)21:15
wmaronerzs19: a vendor could force use of html5/js21:16
rzs19like in tizen and that is what i don't want.21:17
wmaronethere's nothing saying you can't do Tizen development with EFL/C, but they aren't emphasizing it21:17
rcg1rzs19: i'd go with qt.. you got pretty nice high level language for ui stuff but can also hack in c/c++ any way you like21:18
Atariinemo was amazingly easy to install on my N900! Thanks to all involved :D21:18
rcg1but thats just my opinion :)21:18
rzs19rcg1: i like qt :)21:18
rcg1so do i :)21:18
rzs19i just have fear that every os for smartphones will use html5 and js. i like html5 and js, i'm a js framework dev, but i don't want it on my phone.21:19
rcg1personally i found the gobject system always a littlebit awkward and complicated to use21:19
rcg1rzs19: i understand your concerns.. well, unfortunately my experience told me that there will always a break in apis etc...21:20
rcg1only platforms with halfway consistent apis are ios and android21:20
rcg1when it comes to all the maemo/meego based stuff it seems like their hobby is to annoy developers by regularly changing apis21:21
rzs19i'm not a java fan and i also don't lie the multitasking expirience in android.21:21
rcg1thats what i hope is different here with nemo/mer..21:21
wmaronercg1: it's kinda hard to claim that, really21:21
rzs19maemo was really cool, okay needs a little bit too much ram.21:22
rcg1wmarone: claim what? made quite some claims in the last lines ;)21:22
wmaronethat the apis are regularly changing21:22
wmaroneQt is very stable21:22
wmaroneand maemo/meego aren't really relevant anymore21:22
rzs19and i don't get it, why swapiness is set to 100? becouse they swap on flash...21:23
rcg1well... maemo 5: gtk then switched to qt, harmattan suddenly no qt widget support but rather qml.. if you wanna go tizen you need to change to html5+js21:23
rcg1wmarone: ^21:23
rcg1wmarone: yeah, thats what i hope of qt will be :)21:23
wmaroneand none of those platforms are *truly* related21:23
rzs19so i search something after maemo, meego, with Xorg21:24
rzs19porting apps to it is easier than to android21:24
rcg1wmarone: it's just from my past experience writing code for fremantle and harmattan21:24
rcg1i do now they are niche products21:24
rcg1an maybe the continous switch in apis is one reason for this21:25
rzs19andy skype integration in maemo was nearly perfect :)21:25
wmaronemaemo held consistently to Gtk until Harmattan21:25
rzs19i will buy another n900 to test other "distributions" and for playing around21:25
wmaronebut they realized that it has deficiencies that kept it from delivering a truly good experience21:25
rcg1wmarone: sure your right.. but there was some time when qt was heavily promoted21:26
wmaronethat and they own Qt, so it only made sense to actually -use- it21:26
rcg1so i jumped on that train as well ;)21:26
rzs19i couldn't udnerstand, why meamo was not dominating.21:26
rcg1wmarone: sure, and qt is imho much better than gtk21:26
wmaronerzs19: because nokia did not have the corporate ability to make it into what it needed to be until way too late21:27
rcg1but then the decision to drop qt widget based ui support for harmattan was a little unfortunate21:27
rzs19wmarone: what was missing21:27
rcg1i mean you can run qt applications on harmattan but they rather look like desktop apps21:27
wmaronethe ability to push the Symbian crowd out of the way21:27
rzs19wmarone: take a look at android its more like a bad joke...21:27
wmaronerzs19: I know, I don't really hold any interest in Android21:28
rzs19wmarone: maemo, task switching was easy and nice, with the thumbnail preview. the ui is easy to use, its fast.21:29
wmaroneit has a nice UI21:30
wmaroneUI has nothing to do with the toolkit21:30
rzs19its based upon debian, so you could theoretical use any toolkit. they switched to QT, don't udnerstand why they let it die...21:31
wmaronelet what die?21:32
rcg1i think he refers to maemo?21:33
rzs19i mean maemo and meego21:33
rcg1in fact its not as dead as it might seem21:33
rcg1i mean, that's why we are here in the channel?21:33
wmaroneperhaps you missed that their CEO is an ex-Microsoftie and they're now shipping Windows devices?21:34
rcg1because we have a interest in fully open source mobile platforms? :)21:34
rzs19soo and now i need to code a little bit, thx for the nice talk.21:34
wmaronenemomobile is based off Mer, which has no Nokia association21:34
rcg1rzs19: have fun :)21:34
rzs19i need to read more about mer, nemomobile.21:34
rcg1me too21:35
rzs19rcg1: there is no fun with js, it only needs to be done :P21:35
rcg1but there are only so many hours in a day ;)21:35
rcg1rzs19: then get it done quickly ;)21:35
rzs19i will do my best.21:35
rcg1wmarone: but i think there are also many good things that originated from nokia, e.g., putting qt under lgpl was pretty good21:36
rcg1before it had that somewhat crude trolltech license iirc21:36
wmaronewell, it was either the commercial license or GPLv221:36
rcg1you're righz21:39
rcg1btw are there any closed source bits left for running nemo/mer or is everything including bootloader, flasher and the like open source?21:44
wmaronegpu drivers, wifi firmware21:44
wmaroneyeah, the powervr gpu in the SoC21:44
rcg1i though i read somewhere Stskeeps did very much of the gpu driver porting?21:44
wmaronethat just makes it work on the newer kernel21:45
rcg1oh ic21:45
wmaronethere's still a userspace blob21:45
rcg1ah well, that's most likely the same as with most linux stuff vs gpu vendors21:49
wmaroneit is21:50
wmaronealbeit harder as most SoC GPU vendors are much less willing to listen to end-users than Nvidia/ATI21:50
rcg1iirc only intel has completely open sourced its drivers, right?21:50
wmaroneerr AMD21:50
rcg1aye ic21:51
rcg1maybe this is a point in which mobile open source projects can benefit from the intels alliance with samsung in tizen21:52
wmaronecertainly moreso than with Android, seeing as how Tizen pulls from other, existing open source projects21:53
rcg1hehe ic.. well, certainly interesting times we are living in :)21:55
rcg1alright.. gtg, got an important presentation tomorrow..22:15
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pruzelunless I'm reading it wrong, omapdrm is avaible for omap2+ devices, meaning n900. https://github.com/robclark/kernel-omap4/commit/c972836483d9424c674ada9a483a9a9e402ad838 I wonder If someone feels like trying? I'm nogood, my kernels won't boot without even touching omapdrm.22:27
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