Monday, 2013-11-18

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juicememorning :)06:12
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locusfI was thinking about starting to port colorful-home to use nemo qtquickcontrols, making components as needed while moving along09:16
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sledgessounds exciting locusf10:08
sledgesdo you need any specs?10:09
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qwazixsledges, PR merged11:07
sledgesqwazix: efcharisties :)11:09
sledgesfeeling better qwazix ?11:09
qwazixhehe, it's you I should thank, I was about to do that yesterday but I was too stoned to do it. Damn flu...11:10
qwazixI don't know, daytime is always better...11:10
sledgeslots of tea with ouzo ;)11:11
zbenjaminqwazix: you got the flu too? it hit me on friday and i was feeling like on a very bad trip the whole weekend11:12
qwazixI'm more of a brandy guy. Ouzo in this case would have me mumbling nonsense I suppose...11:12
qwazixzbenjamin, that exactly.11:12
sledgesnational practise: big shot of pure spirits in the late evening and then dive straight under several layers of bed sheets :)11:13
qwazixyeah, that's good. The difficult part is when you sweat too much in the bed sheets and everything becomes wet...11:15
sledgesthat's the mandatory part of flu exorcism11:16
zbenjaminyou know that alcohol can weaken your immune system because the body needs to take care of the alcohol11:16
sledgesprepare with extra mattress protector and chuck the sheets to washing11:16
sledgeszbenjamin: from scientific PoV yes, but maybe it's placebo that works for us? :))11:16
zbenjaminsledges: maybe ;)11:16
qwazixzbenjamin, probably, but we aren't talking about any significant quantity, just a bit to calm the throat a bit and dilute the pain11:16
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sledgesand induce sweating11:17
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zbenjaminhm i guess the amount is key11:17
sledgesyea, just a shot before bedtime11:17
sledgesdo not spread throughout the day :))11:17
sledges(scratch the tea & ouzo bit ;))11:18
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qwazixbtw sledges, any thoughts about dialogs?11:39
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sledgesqwazix: I like the one on the left:
qwazixhmm, that makes it all more difficult :P11:46
sledgesit will also look fine with dark image behind, job done11:46
sledgesqwazix: do you mean blur?11:46
qwazixno I mean that the other guys liked the right one :P11:46
* sledges rereads the backlog11:47
qwazix(or maybe I don't remember correctly?)11:47
sledgesflu ;)11:47
sledgesthe right one is barely readable11:47
qwazixare we looking at the same thing?11:48
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sledgesoh dam11:48
qwazixthe right one has a darker background11:48
sledgeswho's with flu here?11:48
sledgesno excuses for me, although I'll try one: since started driving in UK after 8 years of driving in contintental Europe, (had no sides-related accidents), but cannot tell left from right anymore~11:49
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qwazixI feel you, I was driving for 5 years in Cyprus11:49
sledgeshonestly, i ask people to show directions with their hands rather than telling works when they are in the car :D11:49
qwazixanyway, I'm for the darker one too, as it works for all backgrounds, and it can function even without blur11:51
sledgesok, let's try again, I like "the darker one" :D11:51
qwazixgood, we have a consensus then :)11:52
qwazixsandy_locke, ^^11:52
sledgeswhew, that was an easy one :D11:52
sledgeslet's move on :)11:52
sledgesI disliked the bits to let user choose if they w11:52
sledgeswant blur on their device or not11:52
qwazixalso the blue button needs semibold as per the spec11:52
sledgesi wouldn't like glacier to become another compiz-settings-manager11:52
sledgesincreases complexity11:53
sledgessome adaptive benchmarks (agains FPS) idea I very much liked11:53
qwazixok, agreed as long as there is a way to force it via gconf or something11:53
sledgesis there a way to monitor FPS and expose that API (via DBUS)?11:54
sledgeswould be another innovation ;)11:54
sledgeslike, "get me an average FPS of last 5 minutes"11:54
sledgesshould ask Qt/compositor guys11:54
qwazixnot a bad idea, but would we want to do such changes on the fly? Wouldn't it be weird if it's there and after 5min it's not?11:55
sledgesneed to analyse use case scenarios11:56
sledgesit might work out, it might not11:56
sledgesideally, if one uses their phone casually, it's always not overloaded11:56
sledgesand only <10% of time phone is overloaded with apps and ongoing background processes11:57
sledges(also works fine if it's vice versa)11:57
sledges(for super active phone hackers :))11:57
sledgesbut if most user scenarios overload their phone in a random pattern, then it would be as you say - weird - 5 min blur, next 5 min just fade in11:58
qwazixbut most of the times the high-load situations are hard to predict (heavy website + incoming call for example)11:58
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sledgescorrect, the question is, what fraction of phone usage those random situations occupy12:00
sledgesalso with fast hardware we might be FPS-lucky more than not12:00
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sledgesand it's not too weird BTW: remember N9's LPM - graphics quality reduces in that mode, and not many complained about it (Lumia series have LPM since this summer :DD)12:01
sledgesnow we should ask ourselves: is "blur in" really worth innovating, seeing all the challenges above?12:03
qwazixsledges, LPM graphics are always the same for the same situation, for dialogs it might be that one dialog has blur and another doesn't (or even the same one)12:04
qwazixbtw, for >dualcore we can think of isolating one cpu for important things like calls
sledgesqwazix: that's right, I'm also worried about consistency, and moreover, we might need extensive case studies of how people use phones first, which might return inconclusive, due to unpredictable high-load situations and different HW12:06
qwazixI think that the way apple does it is the easiest and safest. Enable it in certain devices. Now we can get a bit smarter, and run a benchmark on first boot, or read the specs from /sys/ instead of hardcoding in .ks12:08
sledgesPS: if one hasn't got their eye glasses on, blur-in and fade-in don't differ that much *g*12:09
sledgesqwazix: we shouldn't forget, that if we benchmark and find out it's a high-end device, we enable dialog blur-in. but then we should do many other fancy shader stuff (otherwise there'sn't much differentiation). like blurring in anything what's otherwise fading-in (lockscreen etc), and not to forget when we should stop before creating another monster :)12:11
sledgesbut the approach "sniff out what piece of hw we're installing on" is very appealing12:13
* sledges keeps pondering about the marvellous "resize SVGs on device during install" bit ;)12:13
sledges*into PNGs12:13
qwazixsledges, agreed, dialogs only isn't worth it12:14
qwazixbut we already have other things that could benefit from live blurring (we could have live wallpapers for example)12:15
sledgesthat one12:15
sledgesfrom implementation PoV this benchmarking behaviour will increase complexity in code, so needs to be thought-out well12:16
qwazixanyway though, we should first focus on delivering a usable thing IMO and then spend time on bling12:16
sledgeswas about to suggest - wait until we have enough time spent on using Glacier V112:17
sledgeskeep it simple for now and fade-in?12:17
qwazixthat's what I'd do for now, yeah12:18
sledgessorry sandy_locke :)12:18
sledgesbut great idea for the future bling12:18
sledgesOrokuSaki: from yesterday, you need to check if your theme-name says 'glacier' (zypper in -f nemo-theme-glacier)12:20
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sledgessandy_locke: sorry to hear about your N9, i was afk yesterday, but was wishing you'd come across
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qwazixbtw, I installed ubuntu tablet "stable" on my Nexus 7 to check it out... What a joke!12:26
qwazixYeah, sad. It shouldn't have been called stable by a longshot12:29
qwazixThe performance was abysmal and it froze on me less than a minute after boot12:30
qwazixtwice. Then I removed it.12:30
Stskeepsused mir didn't it12:30
qwazixI think so yeah12:31
qwazixI'll try a more recent version some time and see if it's gotten any better.12:31
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sandy_lockehi peops12:47
sandy_lockeyeah, I tested it some time ago and what striked me was that apps were really scarce, like the web browser which didn't allow to type your own address12:47
sandy_lockeand navigating through the UI was inintuitive and a real pain too !12:48
sandy_lockeqwazix: I see the comp list has been updated on the wiki12:53
sandy_lockeit seems we're almost done ?12:53
qwazixsandy_locke, sledges updated it12:53
qwazixlet me see, we might be forgetting something12:54
qwazixwe still have the contextRoller and selectRoller to finish, and I am not happy with the slotmachine date/timepicker. Circular/calendar is better12:56
qwazixalso sheets should be removed IMO and replaced with big dialogs, no need to have two kinds of them12:57
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sandy_lockeok, I'll finish the dialogs today12:58
sandy_lockewe'll see how sheets can be merged into them12:58
sandy_locke+1 on circular/calendar instead of slotmachine12:59
sandy_lockelike the idea and originality12:59
sandy_locke+easy to use and intuitive12:59
sandy_lockedunno what contextRoller & selectRoller is, if you have link to example ?13:00
sandy_lockepage indicators, ratings & more indicator are nowhere to be seen in mockups, or did I miss sth ?13:03
qwazixsorry, just a sec13:04
sandy_lockethen we'll need to design core apps13:05
sandy_lockeI also find text fields too close to android's ...13:06
sandy_lockebut they're nice though13:07
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qwazixsandy_locke, about rollers
sandy_lockeI see, thx13:11
qwazixpage indicators are pointless unless we specify a pager component, which we should first discuss. It's cool for some applications that have certain same-level pages, but maybe it's confusign to mix it with drill-down navigation?13:12
qwazixratings are nowhere in the mockups and should be implemented13:12
qwazixmore indicator, I don't know, each use is a bit different, we could make one for lists and provide an easy api for lazyload too13:13
sandy_lockewhat about a swipe down or up to load more ?13:14
qwazixwe also should do a harmattan -> glacier guide, saying which component corresponds to which. It'll help developers port apps and us to spot missing components13:15
qwazixsandy_locke, that too13:15
qwazixshould be part of the listView13:15
sandy_lockeI designed the comp list to have the same comp name as the ones from the Qt Components app13:15
qwazixah, okay perfect13:17
qwazixso that's our guide too :)13:17
* sandy_locke on phone...13:19
* sandy_locke is available again :)13:22
sandy_lockeqwazix: I'm updating the comp list with of those new details13:23
sandy_locke*w/o "of"13:23
sledgesqwazix, sandy_locke, hi, im back too13:24
sandy_lockehi sledges :)13:24
qwazixsandy_locke, yeah, go ahead13:24
sledgesfaenil implemented toolbar, which acts like Header imho13:24
qwazixwb sledges13:24
sledgesso a bit of confusion in there13:24
sandy_lockeyeah, I saw that sledges13:24
faenilsledges, headerdock is a different thing13:24
faenilthe one I committed is the QCC toolbar, which is just a black rect13:24
faenilI have the headerdock prototype somewhere but have stopped playing with it since yu know when13:25
qwazixsorry in advance for the following spam:13:26
qwazix###DISCUSS: Do we want a Pager component?13:27
qwazix###DISCUSS: LazyLoading and Pull-Refresh in lists13:27
sandy_lockeand therefore a page indicator13:27
qwazix###DISCUSS: Time/Date pickers13:28
qwazixok, done13:28
qwazixI just wanted to tag things so that we can get easily back here with a search in the logs13:28
sandy_lockefor time/date pickers I'm really into the circular stuff13:29
sandy_lockeI only see pros to this kind of design13:30
qwazixyep me too, but it can always be improved13:30
qwazixmaybe there are some cool ideas13:31
qwazixwe also have a component (almost)
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qwazixtime to rest a while. Cya later13:34
sledgesget well soon qwazix13:34
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sandy_lockelike the first implementation (link above) :)13:39
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locusfsledges: surely yes13:53
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locusfeg. Label would be nice to be specced13:56
locusf(for Viewplaceholder)13:56
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sledgeslocusf, I think this label needs to be upstreamed as NemoLabel:
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sledgesi see what you mean locusf
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sandy_lockewhen someone comes here, take a look at
sandy_lockeand tell me what you think...14:56
sandy_lockeqwazix: ^14:56
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sandy_lockeselection dialogs are different from list views, in that they can appear dynamically inside the window14:59
sandy_lockedialog is unobstrusive and don't need a new window to appear above the previous one15:00
sledgessandy_locke: I think you can marry your idea with this concept:
sandy_lockeyup, then do you think we should merge selection dialogs and selectRollers, sledges ?15:01
sandy_lockesince we want dialogs to steal focus the least as possible15:02
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sledgessandy_locke: where did you come across term 'selection dialog' out of mere interest..?15:05
locusfsledges: I think you are right, I can just port Label into the button then15:06
sledgesMostly the font-matters should be abstracted up15:07
sandy_lockesledges: from the QML component app15:07
sledgessandy_locke: qtcomponents ?15:07
sledgesright, now i see where you're coming from :)15:08
* sledges fires up vm15:08
sandy_lockeno, qmlcomponent, I think it was provided by locusf15:08
sandy_lockeyup :)15:08
sledgesi know now what you mean :)15:08
* sledges looks15:08
sandy_lockeyou're welcome15:08
locusfwhat where when15:09
sandy_locke^^, sorry, I thought you were the one who gave me the qmlcomponent gallery package in the first place, but I may be wrong15:10
sledgesyes, we should simply merge those two (selection dialogs and selectRollers) sandy_locke15:11
sandy_lockeok, good, problem solved then :)15:12
sledgesyes, job done :))15:13
sandy_lockeand then multi selection dialogs are the same with, well, multi-selection ...15:19
sandy_lockeI'll send a pull request on qwazix repo to add it to component specs designs15:19
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locusfhmm I should have really studied the damn c++ theming lol15:29
sledgeslocusf: is all autogenerated ;)15:29
locusfexcept for the json15:29
sledgesyea, json is flat15:30
sledgesprobably is what confuses you15:30
sandy_lockelocusf: I read that you successfuly merged sailfish ui into nemo mobile, have you some links to see your work ?15:31
sandy_lockethx :)15:40
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locusfI got some errors regarding the use of Label theming, it was "Error: your root item must be a window"16:20
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sledgeslocusf: can I haz look?16:27
locusfI already git checkout .16:27
locusfto start over :)16:27
sledgesif it comes back16:27
locusfreading a paper now, for thesis work, will bbl16:27
sledgesyou might try wrapping it with Component { }16:27
sledgesbut better get to the bottom of this first16:28
faenildirectly from pendolino train \o/16:29
faenilcan you sum up what happened today? :D16:29
* sledges funiculi funicula...!!16:29
sledges'ncoppa jamme ja16:30
* sledges can't get out of head now :P16:30
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faenilcome on!16:34
faenildon't make me read the backlog :D16:35
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locusfhaven't been too active today so can't give a summary :/16:39
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faenilwhere's that lazy a** :D16:45
faenilsledges, oh there you are o/16:45
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Morpog_PCwell, I just read the backlog too :D16:48
faenilyeah I've always done that :P16:48
faenilok guys, screw you, won't do me a favour :P :D16:49
Morpog_PCwell, it's hard to summarize faenil16:49
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faenil;) np16:50
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sandy_lockehey peops, what about the statusbar design ? do we have anything ? Like icons, layout and the like ?17:01
sledgesfaenil :D go read the backlog 11 times around church on your knees now :DD17:02
faenilsandy_locke, I think it's in hurrian's mockups?17:02
faenilbut no specs afaik17:02
sledgessandy_locke: yes, third pic:
sandy_lockeok, that's what I thought17:04
sandy_lockeit's a nice looking statusbar17:04
sandy_lockeis hurrian available to draft specs for it ?17:05
sandy_lockelike list of icons, paddings etc...17:05
sledgeswell in past Hurrian did most mockups, and Morpog_PC and/or qwazix specced17:05
sledgesfeel free to chip in17:05
Morpog_PCyay, I'm kinda busy lately iunfortunately17:07
sledgessandy_locke, Hurrian's PhotoShop sources of those mockups are available too (with vector graphics), ask around to obtain them17:07
sandy_lockesledges: that's what I was wondering17:08
sandy_lockeWho shoud I ask N17:08
Morpog_PCsledges, no vector graphics in there17:08
sledgesMorpog_PC, a17:08
sandy_lockeps files should be engough17:08
Morpog_PCsandy, I can send you the PSD17:08
Morpog_PCerm, better dropbox17:08
sandy_lockeyup, that would be nice Morpog_PC , thx17:08
sledgesMorpog_PC: did we end-up vectorising them?..17:09
Morpog_PCsledges, yes in our specs17:09
sledgeslike icons17:09
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sledgesermm.. how did you vectorise them ? (semi-)automatically?17:09
sledgesthe launcher icons I bet was PITA17:10
Morpog_PCah well, those icons qwazix had ready17:10
sledgesso you skipped those emobossed ones, and went ahead with breeze flat ones?17:10
sledgesis all making sense now :)17:11
* sledges sadly likes the embossed icons way too much :D17:11
Morpog_PCemboss is the past :)17:11
sledgesi know i know17:11
Morpog_PCwe will add a subtle shadow to the icons though17:11
Morpog_PCif QtGraphicalEffects works out17:11
sledgesPS: breeze icons are not flat flat, some backgrounds have radial gradients ;)17:11
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sledgeswhich is nice17:12
sledgessubtle ;)17:12
Morpog_PCwell, but flatter than usual stuff ;)17:12
Morpog_PCit's still uploading sandy_locke, I got a worse connection here17:12
sandy_lockeMorpog_PC: np :)17:13
sledgesMorpog_PC: has it got the status bar?17:13
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sledges(probably irrelevant, as that can anyhow be carved out of the link above)17:14
sledges(since we talking raster here)17:15
sandy_lockeMorpog_PC: so are there vectors for statusbar, or ... ?17:15
Morpog_PCno spec, no vector :)17:15
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Morpog_PCor are you talking bout PSD shapes?17:16
sledgesno woman no cry17:16
sandy_lockeI was talking about svg's17:17
sandy_lockethx Morpog_PC , but there's no statusbar in there...17:18
locusfhmm why doesn't my label page show anything :/17:18
sledgesHurrian: ping17:20
sledgessandy_locke: if Hurrian doesn't come back soon, you could replicate just by looking at
locusfsledges: here if you wanna take a look
sledgessandy_locke: as Morpog_PC said, SVGs need to be made by hand17:22
sandy_lockeyeah, I could... but I'll need more insight to figure out the dimensions of each comp17:23
locusfsledges: correction
sandy_lockewhat's the height of the statusbar ?17:24
Morpog_PCsandy_locke, define one17:27
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Morpog_PCsmallest pressable icon size we want is about 50x5017:27
sandy_lockeok, nice :)17:27
Morpog_PCmaybe have alook on sizes that are used in other components to have a consostense17:27
sledgesMorpog_PC: sandy_locke: what about this approach:
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sandy_lockesledges: this is what I'm gonna spec ;)17:29
* sledges takes out the ruler17:29
sledgeslocusf: try defining LabelStyle.qml in qtquickcontrols-nemo/src/styles (look at others)17:32
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locusfsledges: oh ok , thanks :)17:34
sledgeslocusf: the styles/ dir for example style the Button "the Glacier way" (background image and label)17:41
* Morpog_PC thinks about having status bar only on homescreens17:42
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sledgeslocusf: but they way you did it should still work17:43
locusfsledges: yes17:43
sledgesMorpog_PC: is status bar shown during bottom-edge swipe? (and otherwise only mid-way through screen if notifications are pending)17:44
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locusfargh faenil just left17:45
locusfwell anyways
sledgeslocusf: debug *g*17:47
locusfI don't know how to proceed as no additional output is generated in the console17:47
sledgesMorpog_PC: so you can sneak peek from under any app17:47
locusfor in journalctl17:47
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Morpog_PCsledges, sounds good17:50
sledgesMorpog_PC: that's what I read out from mockup17:50
sledges(together with the sharpening glass lockscreen :))17:51
* sledges feels engrossed with Hurrian's nice ideas :)17:52
locusfsledges: Labels view just results to black screen17:52
locusfvery odd behaviour17:53
locusfqml is all good though17:53
locusfwell there is some problem with Component.onCompleted not working17:55
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sledgeslocusf: what about a simple hardcoded case first:
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sandy_lockeMorpog_PC: are you sure that statusbar icons should be 50x50  and no less ?18:30
locusfsledges: I had the same problem before too18:33
locusfsledges: the black screen18:33
sledgeslocusf: add this
sledgesnot to feel so black and be able to come back18:37
sledgesfor starters18:37
sledgesspeak laters fellows, have fun!18:37
sledgessandy_locke, Morpog_PC: I agree, in the scaled png I paster the icon looks ~42x4218:38
sledges(it won't be clickable though iirc, so good to go ahead, as bigger would look odd)18:38
locusfsledges: I got it18:38
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sandy_lockesledges: right, that's what I'm thinking, too big is odd18:39
sandy_locke35 is already pretty big for a statusbar18:39
sandy_lockebut we have to agree on weither to have statusbar on main screen only or also within applications18:40
sandy_lockemain screen only = bigger statusbar ; also within apps = smaller18:40
sandy_lockeright now, my statusbar is 59px tall, because we have two levels of text for each icon18:42
sandy_lockebut I think it is a bit too big for in app display18:42
sledgessandy_locke: check my last brief dialogue with Morpog_PC18:45
sledgesi vote to keep homescreen clean18:45
sledgesand since status bar is peekable (hidden most times) it doesnt hurt to have it bit bigger18:45
sledgesalso, you could swipe homescreen for status bar/notifications underneath, same like for apps18:46
locusfsledges: I'll wait for faenil / Sfiet_Konstantin18:46
sandy_lockesledges: ok, so not on homescreen neither in apps then ?18:47
sandy_lockedon't you think we must keep one place where statusbar is always visible ?18:48
Sfiet_Konstantinlocusf: I'm here18:48
Sfiet_KonstantinI have to read18:48
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Sfiet_Konstantinsomeone to do a summary ? O:)18:48
locusfSfiet_Konstantin: when tapping on Labels page indicator I just move to a black screen without toolbar or the elements to be displayed18:48
locusfeverything else works ok though18:49
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locusfSfiet_Konstantin: could you test my branch?18:49
Morpog_PCsandy_locke, sorry, mixed status bar with toolbar there18:50
* sandy_locke is on phone, bbsoon18:50
Sfiet_Konstantinlocusf: faenil's duty I guess, I'm not familiar with page indicators yet18:51
Sfiet_Konstantineven if I want to dig into it asap18:51
Sfiet_Konstantin(after exams :/)18:51
Sfiet_Konstantin(another approaching :/)18:51
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sledgesSfiet_Konstantin: its his new label qml18:53
Sfiet_Konstantinsledges: by locusf ?18:54
locusfSfiet_Konstantin: yes18:54
Sfiet_Konstantinthen I'm gonna try18:54
Sfiet_Konstantinone sec18:54
Sfiet_Konstantinsorry :$18:54
sledgeslook up backlog18:54
Morpog_PCall these lazy backlog ignorers ;)18:55
Stskeepswhat do you guys call the nemo UX these days?18:56
Sfiet_Konstantinanyone of you knows the behaviour of windows phone's contacts app18:56
Morpog_PCStskeeps, Glacier UI18:56
Sfiet_KonstantinI want to reproduce one behaviour in QML but it is not easy18:56
Morpog_PCStskeeps, but it's far from being implemented :)18:57
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* Sfiet_Konstantin compiles18:59
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Sfiet_Konstantinfood calling19:01
locusfah I missed it from .qrt19:06
locusfthats why it didn't work19:06
locusfyup that was it19:08
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locusfgot it working, pushing and PR:ing19:17
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locusffaenil: are you coming to Helsinki next week (Jolla reveal)?19:30
faenilindeed o/19:31
locusfnice, we can meet up then :)19:31
faenillocusf, yeah o7 :D19:33
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Morpog_PCI really hope they offer air mail option :)19:34
Morpog_PCI envy you guys :D19:34
locusfMorpog_PC: I wouldn't if winter comes19:35
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Sfiet_KonstantinQML gurus, I have a problem20:03
Sfiet_Konstantinimagine the Sailfish homescreen: you have 3 + pages20:03
Sfiet_Konstantin1 lockscreen + notif, 1 multitask, 1+ apps20:03
Sfiet_Konstantinyou do this with a ListView, with one delegate per page20:03
Sfiet_Konstantinnow I want one of these page to have a flickable behaviour20:04
Sfiet_Konstantinas if one of the page would be big, and that you will have to scroll to reach the end20:04
Sfiet_Konstantinyou need this page to naturally stop at top and bottom20:04
Sfiet_Konstantinhow would you do that20:04
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Sfiet_Konstantin(looks like WP contacts app, horizontally: you have this favourite contacts that can be scrolled as a flickable, even if it is kept inside a sort of listview20:05
sandy_lockesledges, Morpog_PC : we'll need to discuss further on this statusbar stuff! Don't have time now, but be sure to be there tomorrow ;)20:06
Sfiet_Konstantinnoone is interested by my problem :D20:13
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qwazixlots of backlog, let's start LIFO then20:16
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qwazixSfiet_Konstantin, if things haven't improved in qq2 then what you are describing certainly requires a hack (unless I didn't read it correctly)20:17
Sfiet_Konstantinqwazix: :(20:17
qwazixeven sideways flickables inside vertical ones were a PITA20:18
qwazixSo I would say disable the big flickable when you get to your big page, and enable it when you reach the end of the nested flickable20:18
qwazixworks, but it's not too robust (at least in QQ1)20:18
qwazixsandy_locke, Morpog_PC: rogue idea, what if we don't have a status bar at all, and put all necessary info as a first row of icons?20:20
Sfiet_Konstantinqwazix: without uing flickables as deleates ?20:20
qwazixsignal -> goes to networks, battery -> power settings, wifi -> obvious, time -> clock20:21
qwazixSfiet_Konstantin, I don't think you can avoid that20:21
qwazixsandy_locke, I will comment about dialogs in the PR20:22
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Eztranqwazix: Info as icons? This is partly why watching Nemo is so interesting, you guys consider all kinds of weird stuff :)20:27
qwazixEztran, hehe20:27
qwazixthink about it though, you already have calendar saying the date in homescreen on every OS, why not expand that idea?20:28
Morpog_MobileSounds good qwazix, across all homescreens?20:28
qwazixMy initial thought was to be in the central one, but that can be discussed.20:28
qwazixIt goes along with swipe behaviors20:29
EztranThis reminds me of that Grog post about removing the lockscreen-home-screen-app drawer redundancy, and it's a pretty good point here too.20:29
qwazixif swipe behavior is like harmattan we should put them everywhere, but if we always show one screen we can put them there20:29
Morpog_MobileM0ckup looks like harmattan20:30
qwazixsomething similar: we can always show events while swiping away, where info can be something like the harmattan events screen header, latest apps launched can be events so that can be our "central hub" of sorts20:30
Morpog_MobileThey coupd stay at same place, onoy homescreens are m0ving20:30
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Morpog_MobileDamn vkb20:31
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qwazix(btw if it's everywhere we might want to make them a bit smaller)20:32
Morpog_MobileIf its only on one screen it shouod be the onewhere you land after swiping an app away20:33
qwazixwhich is not-so-good when you want fast app switching20:34
Morpog_PCoh another idea, we could lock with swiping down on homescreen20:35
qwazixputting them on all screens, and on the bottom would be the most 'glanceable' place20:35
Morpog_PCedhe swiping down20:36
qwazixMorpog_PC, I like that, I always hated that I had to use the button to do it on the N920:36
Morpog_PCyeah me too20:36
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EztranI guess those 'lock button' apps wouldn't exist unless some people agree.20:39
qwazixyep and Sailfish has solved that nicely I believe20:43
sandy_lockeqwazix: "and put all necessary info as a first row of icons" > I need to see that to understand your thought correctly20:53
sandy_lockecould you do a rapid mockup, even a quick draft ?20:54
sandy_locke(not necessarily tonight)20:54
qwazixsandy_locke, it's too simple, just imagine your N9 app grid20:54
sandy_lockeMorpog_PC, qwazix : +1 for swipe to lockscreen20:55
qwazixthe first 4 icons could be live, like the calendar one20:55
qwazixone with battery status (there is even an app in the store for that)20:55
sandy_lockemmmh, but maybe *too* simple indeed20:55
sandy_lockewe should propose something more "classy" don't you think ?20:55
qwazixit's just an idea, maybe we can build on that20:56
sandy_locke'cause icons are for apps, and we're talking about service information, right ?20:56
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qwazixtrue, but most of those services have actions behind them anyway, so being icons is useful20:56
sandy_lockeyes, but you"re right: we could get rid of the statusbar and put those info in the first row of the homescreen, but not necessarily as icons20:57
qwazixalready Morpog said we should have them on all screens, so maybe making them smaller and, say 6 would be better20:57
qwazix(include bt, nfc, etc)20:57
sandy_lockewe should think this through and thoroughly20:57
sandy_lockeqwazix, what do you think if we have the first row as special icons, with different designs from the others, and swiping down on each icon slides it's information content (with limited height) ?20:59
sandy_lockeor maybe it make things heavier where what we want is informations available at a glance :/21:00
qwazixhmm, swiping down will interfere with scrolling maybe?21:00
sandy_lockeno because it would be a swipe down *only* on each icon21:01
sandy_lockeif you want to swipe, you swipe from below21:01
qwazixI know, but still, the user would have to be careful21:01
qwazixand it's not something you want on the homescreen. Why not reveal info upon click?21:01
qwazixand even an inline dialog with toggles and stuff21:02
sandy_lockethe screen realestate is comfortable enough I think21:02
sandy_lockeyes, but anyway my idea is not good21:02
qwaziximagine something like the folders on N9, with controls in them instead of more icons21:02
sandy_lockewe should keep informations available at first glance, w/o interaction, no ?21:02
qwazixthis way turning wifi off or changing network will be two taps away, and without entering a different app21:03
sandy_lockeyeah, we will definitely need sth like that (n9 folders with toggles)21:03
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qwazixalso consider placing the row on the bottom, it will be very easy to glance21:03
qwazixjust swipe a bit, see the time, and go back to your app21:04
sandy_lockeyup, like that21:05
qwazixwe could also allow the app to sit there with both the app and status bar usable21:06
sandy_lockebut I truely believe that we need to strongly set them apart from the homescreen icons, design wise21:06
qwazixwe could, yeah21:07
sandy_lockeyeah that last idea too21:07
EztranI was just thinking 'if icons are circles, maybe these should be squares?'. And then I realised that's just WP.21:07
qwazixhehe, these can be borderless in fact21:08
sandy_lockeno I was thinking of giving them their own space, with dimmed background and all, like a bigger status bar but different ^^21:08
sandy_lockebut qwazix , it's hard to design without taking too much screen21:10
qwazix|       App        |21:10
qwazix| o o o o o o     v|21:10
sandy_lockeyou still have to give some usefull infos at a glance, like network strength and al21:10
qwazixsomething like this, with "o"s being status icons and "v" will allow going fullscreen again21:10
mikhasmad design skills, qwazix ;-)21:11
EztranMaybe Nemo should be done in ASCII art only?21:11
sandy_lockeok qwazix , but if the row is full of icons, where do you put signal and wifi strength etc... ?21:12
qwazixEztran, I had created a symbian theme once completely in ASCII art, I wonder if I still got the files...21:12
sandy_lockedirectly on the icons ?21:12
qwazixyep, icons should be live21:12
sandy_lockeand tapping an icon do what ?21:13
qwazixjust like any other status bar. Tapping on the icons would go to the corresponding settings page21:13
qwazixor open a drawer with quick controls, if it's not too much21:13
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Morpog_PCI can already imagine that I like it21:14
sandy_lockeme too and I lean toward the drawer21:14
Morpog_PCbtw, remember the small swipe up on n9 to that quick launch bar?21:14
Morpog_PCthat locking would be great here too21:14
sandy_lockeyup, something like that could be good, when inapp21:14
qwazixyep, but we intend to keep the app usable in that state21:14
qwazix(that's why the down arrow (v) to close the status bar)21:15
sandy_lockeand what about a swipe from left to right to close the bar when in-app ?21:15
sandy_lockemay be better than a dedicated button ?21:15
Morpog_PCnot sure if thats necessary there qwazix, as you revealed it by purpose, so it naturally has all of your attention21:16
qwazixall this also works up top, with the added bonus that on home screen you can scroll the status bar away, but it's harder to glance because of finger-stretching21:16
qwazixMorpog_PC, you might want to keep an eye on it for some reason21:16
Morpog_PCyou still can, but you don't need to interact with it, or?21:16
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qwazixI mean, you might want to work on your app and still know the time or something21:17
qwazixyou don't have to do the gesture all the time21:17
qwazixIt's like modality everywhere else, you just don't gain anything by enforcing it21:18
Morpog_PCwould only work with shrinking, not with hovering app21:18
sandy_lockeso short swipe up gives the time bar (10px tall) and long swipe up gives time & icons ?21:18
Morpog_PCadds more complexity to app development21:18
qwazixyeah shrinking, but apps should already support shrinking due to vkb and headerDock21:18
sandy_lockesometimes you don't want time AND icons, just time21:19
qwazixsandy_locke, the way I imagine it there is only one mode21:19
Morpog_PCsure qwazix but we already have headerdock which can shrink it alot + vkb + that = zero app space :D21:19
Morpog_PCvotes also for one mode21:19
EztranSo you've kinda got that bar one end, opposed to headerDock the other? Only one open or the other closes, maybe?21:19
qwazixEztran, exactly21:19
sandy_lockewhat would be the height of the bar then ?21:19
qwazix50u I imagine21:20
Morpog_PC80u :D21:20
qwazixand the icons don't have to be square or circular so time can fit in nicely21:20
qwazixMorpog_PC, note that we want to fit around 6-7 items horizontally21:21
qwazixso (80u+padding)*6 is too much21:21
Morpog_PCbar size not icon size, or?21:22
qwazixoops, sorry :P21:22
qwazixyou're right21:22
sandy_lockesomething along this line, maybe w/o text ?
qwazixI like :D :D21:24
Morpog_PCyeah looks good21:24
EztranActually, that wasn't how I was picturing it, and it looks better.21:24
qwazixtext can be shown if it fits21:25
sandy_lockeyup, those are Hurrian icons, and they are sleek for this kind of use21:25
qwazix(i.e. if not much info to show)21:25
qwazixbbl phone21:25
sandy_lockewith time (and maybe date) there's not much space for text I assume21:26
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qwazixIMO date is not so important21:28
qwazix(can be a tap away)21:28
EztranMmm, date you need to look up, what, once or twice a day at most, really?21:28
qwazixi.e. in the time drawer21:29
qwazixEztran, yep21:29
qwazixthough on N9 it was ridiculously far away21:29
sandy_lockemaybe you two, but me I sometimes need time always present ^^21:29
qwazixwe're talking about date21:30
qwazixtime will be there21:30
sandy_lockemmh, sorry ^^21:30
sandy_lockeyeah, date is not so important21:30
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sandy_locketime could be like this
sandy_lockeunobstrusive and along the bar21:32
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Morpog_PCdate can stay on lockscreen I guess21:32
sandy_lockeyeah, worst comes worst you just lock the screen and go back to what you were doing21:33
sandy_lockeand if lockscreen is one wipe away, the better21:33
sandy_locke*swipe ^^21:34
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Morpog_PCI would remove wlan name and baseband there21:36
Hurriano hai guise21:37
Morpog_PChi hurrian21:37
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Hurrianhow's it all coming along? :)21:38
Morpog_PCwe're discussing homescreen and statusbar and lockscreen atm21:38
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Morpog_PCslowly :)21:38
Morpog_PCyou can check now on merproject21:38
Hurrianmmm, is the status bar persistent or hidden, btw?21:39
Morpog_PCpersistent on homescreen21:39
Morpog_PChidden on apps, but you can peek on it like the quicklaunch bar on N921:39
Hurrianah, nice21:39
Hurrianforgot that on the homescreen, there won't be anywhere to pull up :P21:40
qwazixsandy_locke, column time needs some getting used to, but it's interesting21:43
qwazixwe can also try an analog clock like on the clock icon/hurrian's mockup21:44
qwazixhi Hurrian, what's up?21:44
qwazixMorpog_PC, off topic, but what IRC client do you use on android? YAAIC?21:45
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Hurrianqwazix: analog clock's only for big controls, or the dynamic icon on the home screen21:48
qwazixyeah, but I'd like to see how it looks there if a high enough resolution screen is available21:48
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Hurrianfrom the pic above, I'd put "2013 December 24" beside battery, on top, and time below it.21:50
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qwazixMorpog_PC, thanks, I'm using YAAIC on BB and I was wondering if you knew how to nick-complete that's why the question21:53
Morpog_PCah ok21:53
qwazix(not sure if andchat is available on BB)21:53
Morpog_PCon andchat I use hackers keybord's tabulator key :D21:54
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Morpog_PCI just love that VKB for that21:54
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sandy_lockehi Hurrian21:56
Hurrianohai sandy_locke21:56
sandy_lockeHurrian: we were thinking of getting rid of the date since we want more icons in this statusbar (we were saying sth along 6 icons)21:58
Hurrianmore notifications, or system level icons?21:58
Morpog_PCboth I guess, we just started brainstorming21:59
Hurrianas for notifications, imo you can leave the minified app icons on the bottom of the screen if they need attention, then you can pull up the status bar to see them22:01
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sandy_lockehere is a mockup with wifi panel open
qwazixsandy_locke, you could be more generous with the panel size22:11
Hurriansandy_locke: a bit too little space used - use the whole width for the wifi network list, just put the current network on top, and maybe put signal strength on the right22:12
sandy_lockeqwazix: but we will loose screen realestate :/22:12
qwazixsandy_locke, the panels should be modal anyway22:12
qwazixwe're too deep now to expect anything else, except if we're talking about a tablet22:12
sandy_lockeon phone, give me few minutes ^^22:13
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w00tif anyone remembers the ML post about mascara, I've pushed an early hackotype up to
sandy_lockeHurrian, qwazix, Morpog_PC :
Hurriansandy_locke: nice, you could probably double the padding between entries and add a horizontal line between them, leaving space for AP info22:33
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qwazixHurrian, sandy_locke, let's just use the ListView as specced22:33
qwazixand add a signal strength to the right side22:34
qwazixotherwise, I'm fine with it22:34
qwazixalso, in cases were even more advanced options exist a gear icon should be in a corner somewhere to take you to the settings app22:35
qwazixwe need to reserve some space for it22:36
sandy_lockeqwazix: where you want the listview ?22:37
qwazixthe list of networks, like you have them, we should just stick to the listview sizes and stuff22:37
sandy_lockeok, I'll spec the network list like a listview22:39
qwazixit'll more consistent, and easier to implement too22:39
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sandy_lockeqwazix: signal strength is already on the statusbar, no ? Or you want with numbers.22:42
sandy_lockegear icon could be left to the "wifi" title22:42
qwazixno, the signal strength of each network in the list22:42
sandy_lockeah sorry, ok22:42
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qwazixgear icon there might not invite the user to click, we need it to convey "click me for more"22:43
qwazixwhich would imply more like on the right, or bottom22:43
sandy_lockelower right corner then ?22:44
qwazixthat's what I initially thought. We'll need to increase the height a bit though.22:44
qwazixyour call, just play around with it keeping in mind that "click me for more" role and choose a nice place22:46
sandy_lockethe height of the panel ?22:46
sandy_lockewhy would we need more height ?22:47
qwazixbecause the bottom right will be occupied by the signal strength of the last network22:48
qwazixor we can put the signal of the networks to the left of their names22:48
qwazixand put the gear at the bottom right22:48
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bill_klpdhey guys :D22:50
qwazixhey bill_klpd22:52
qwazixwe're brainstorming about the status bar22:52
bill_klpdso the status bar will be on the bottom?22:53
qwazixeasier to glance22:53
qwazix(won't be always there, just on the homescreen)22:54
bill_klpdaaa ok :P22:54
qwazixif you want to see the time you will swipe a bit to glance and then go back to your app22:54
bill_klpdsomething like the sailfish?22:54
qwazixsomething like that yeah, BB10 does this too22:55
bill_klpdit's a nice feature ;)22:55
bill_klpdcan I ask you some things about the vm?22:55
qwazixwe have an extra feature, that we'll allow the window to be locked at a position where the bar is visible (like the quick launch on the N9)22:55
qwazixgo ahead22:55
qwazix(though I might not be the best person to ask)22:56
bill_klpdgive me 5 minutes and I will be back :)22:56
sandy_lockeo/ bill_klpd22:58
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sandy_lockeqwazix: where can I find a gear icon that we can use ?22:59
sandy_lockedo we have one ?22:59
bill_klpdhey sandy_locke :D23:00
bill_klpdI know that you have answered that before, but what should I do to make my vm up to date?(there was 2 commands but I don't remember them right now...))23:02
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sandy_lockebill_klpd: zypper ref then zypper dup23:03
bill_klpdok... I will try them and tell you ;)23:03
sandy_lockesure, do :-23:03
qwazixsandy_locke, we don't have non-app icons yet no23:04
bill_klpdI tried them yesterday, but I think that it stuck(maybe not)23:04
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sandy_lockeok, I'll take one from my library, but remember we need to change it ;)23:04
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qwazixwe can use for now till we get our own icons23:05
qwazixor even keep those, they look pretty good23:05
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bill_klpdwill there be any issues about copyrights and stuff or not?23:06
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qwazixI was just reading the license page23:09
qwazixit's OFL so it should be okay, many OFL fonts bundled with debian and ubuntu so I suppose the same goes for us23:09
bill_klpdone more thing... all these images are photoshoped/edited, or they are actual images from "tests"/mods on the ui?23:10
qwazixmost of them are just mockups23:10
qwazix(if not all)23:10
qwazixthere is the implementation of the button right now in software, the textField and some others in non-completed state23:11
qwazixstill, you can only see them in a demo app (qtquickcontrolsgallery or something). All other apps still use the old components from harmattan23:11
qwazixonce we are done creating glacier components we'll port the apps23:12
qwazix(we first have to mock them up first though)23:12
* sledges back before bedo23:13
sledgessandy_locke: gear icon should be in Hurrian's .psd file23:14
sandy_lockeok, thx sledges23:14
sandy_lockefontawesome won't work with sketch :/23:14
sledgesas Morpog took it for his browser mockup23:14
sledgeswow first time i see Morpog* -less channel :D23:15
qwazixIt's just a font, why wouldn't it work?23:16
sandy_lockebecause it keeps going back to lucida ^^23:16
sandy_lockeit won't display the icons23:17
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sandy_lockeyeah, I think so too23:20
sandy_lockeqwazix: and what about something like that : ?23:20
qwazixyep, that icon looks a bit too big compared to everything else but yeah, conveys the message23:21
qwazixanyway, time for me to go to bed. See you all tomorrow. Nice brainstorming session today.23:21
sandy_lockeyup, good night then23:22
bill_klpdgood night ;)23:22
sandy_lockeI think I'll go read a bit23:22
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sledgesbill_klpd: if your cmvm freezes, use HostKey+H to unlock23:23
sandy_lockebill_klpd: sledges : or you type "mcetool -Don" in fingerterm and voilĂ , no more freezes :D23:25
bill_klpdafter the zypper ref and zypper dup23:25
bill_klpdwill there be23:25
bill_klpdany difference?23:25
bill_klpdI mean how can I understand if it is done?23:26
sandy_lockebill_klpd: sometimes you don't ;)23:26
sandy_lockebut when you zypper dup, it's because someone updated something, so just check *those* things that have been updated23:28
sledgesits done if next time you run it it says "Nothing to do" ;)23:28
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sandy_lockeright now I think that when you invoke the keyboard, it's glacier maliit23:28
bill_klpdI think that it needs to be done again...23:29
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bill_klpdi did the "mcetool -Don" in fingerterm now23:29
sandy_lockecool, no you don't risk screen freeze :D23:30
bill_klpdlet's hope that it will not freeze :P23:30
sandy_lockesince it's a VM, you don't mind not having screen going to sleep23:30
sandy_lockethat's what this command does23:30
sandy_lockethe VM build freezes when going to sleep23:30
bill_klpdthis must be the issue then ;)23:32
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sandy_lockeok nite peops, going to read a bit and sleep :)23:36
sandy_lockesee ya23:36
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sledgesim off too, have fun who isn't :)23:38
bill_klpdi will go too after the vm is finished23:38
bill_klpdsee ya23:38
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