Wednesday, 2013-12-04

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twobobblerrooted and booted, the white 4.1.1 tablet brick is in my power...00:23
twobobbler*look deep into my code, you are feeling likely to get a new operating system*00:23
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sledgestwobobbler: ^_^06:06
twobobblersledges :D06:06
* sledges turns over06:06
sledgesz)06:06
* twobobbler does amusing dance moves06:06
twobobblerso I rooted the tablet06:06
twobobblerViVante GC1000 GPU06:07
sledges\o/06:07
twobobblerheh06:07
twobobblergot shh06:07
sledges\z/06:07
twobobblerbeen digging around, seems up for the job06:07
sledgesis it kindle paperwhite?06:07
twobobblerpretty much just waiting on some libhybris docs now I guess06:08
sledgesu talkin abput06:08
sledgesdoes cm10.x exist for it?06:08
twobobblerrooted that two weeks ago. this is a generic white tablet for the purposes of trying out some alternate OS's06:08
twobobblerdoubtful06:08
sledgesok ;)06:08
twobobblerits a no name06:09
sledgesmaybe can find ref hw cm06:09
twobobblerperhaps so06:09
twobobblerhmmm good call06:09
twobobblerI checked out http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/ClockWorkMod_Instructions before I rooted it the hard way06:10
twobobblerwill revist that,06:10
twobobblerbut yeah. just brushing up on my knowledge now - getting ready to do a few alternate OS's for it06:11
twobobblerAndroid, Tizen, Nemo, Ubuntu mobile would be a nice quad boot to start off with ;)06:12
twobobblernot that I want much ;P06:12
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locusfmorning all06:30
twobobblerohmygosh it is already ! doh06:30
tbrgood moaning06:30
twobobbler*tries to look asleep*06:30
twobobblerand morning :)06:30
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deztructorsledges: faenil just woke up and have a breakfast :) it seems today I'd move to office: roof renovation is going on with a lot of noise :/ but you can ask me whatever you want :) i reply asap06:42
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fk_lxhi07:07
* Stskeeps has a damn throat infection that he likely got from his kiddo who got it from his grandmother..07:07
* fk_lx pats Stskeeps07:10
fk_lx;-)07:10
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lpotterStskeeps: garagle with warm salt water07:31
lpottergargle07:31
faenildeztructor, thank you ;)07:36
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stephgmorning!08:11
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faenilo/08:12
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sledgesdeztructor: many thanks09:28
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locusfsledges: I repushed label branch10:07
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MFaro-Tusinoso I used the ubiboot method to boot nemo11:17
MFaro-Tusino(just because it was prettier11:18
MFaro-Tusino*prettier)11:18
MFaro-Tusinobut it seems Nemo won't boot at all - despite all the files being there11:18
sledgesubiboot config ok?11:18
MFaro-TusinoI think so - I'm yet to check11:18
MFaro-Tusinothough when I did the -l -b load of the moslo it didn't boot after that11:18
sledgeshow does it not boot?11:19
sledges:)11:19
MFaro-Tusinoso i have a feeling it is something in the nemo side11:19
MFaro-TusinoIt shows moslo, I press vol-, screen is blank, stays blank, if i plug in to see if LED light is responsive - it boots up (meaning it was off)11:20
sledgesevery time?11:20
MFaro-Tusinothe 5 times I tried, yes11:21
sledgesnormally it needs a bit of massaging11:21
sledgesoh ok11:21
sledgeshave you untarred everything correctly?11:21
MFaro-Tusinotar -xvf /path/of/nemorootfs.tar.baz2 -C /path/to/Alt_OS --numeric-owner is what I used11:21
MFaro-Tusino(Did that as root)11:22
Stskeepsis your Alt_OS by accident mounted nosuid or nodev11:23
MFaro-Tusinohow do I check stskeeps?11:23
Stskeeps'mount'11:23
Stskeeps:P11:23
MFaro-Tusinohahaha11:23
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sledgesStskeeps: that applies only to platform sdk iirc11:23
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Stskeepssledges: not really, no11:23
Stskeeps:P11:23
sledgesah ;)11:23
MFaro-Tusinowell with ubiboot everything is mounted, but I will try manually mounting it11:24
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sledgesStskeeps: MFaro-Tusino: hmph, my one is mounted nosuid,nodev11:26
sledgesbut never had problems re-extracting et al11:26
Stskeepsbaad idea11:26
Stskeeps:P11:26
sledgeshow come it all worked?11:27
sledgesw/o suid bits11:27
MFaro-Tusinomounted fine11:27
sledges(needs to find a suid bit file in rootfs - hints? ;))11:27
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: dose it have nosuid,nodev in mount opts?11:27
MFaro-Tusinono11:27
sledgesok then11:28
sledgestry this11:28
sledgesmkdir /tmp/nemo; cd /tmp/nemo; sudo tar --numeric-owner -xf <path-to>/nemo-n950-rnd-20131120.tar.bz2; sudo rsync -rlpgovc --delete /tmp/nemo/ /media/Alt_OS/11:28
sledgesyou should see what files will be rewritten (in case they got corrupted, if any)11:28
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sledgesso if Alt_OS is mounted with nosuid,nodev; how come I'm seeing this: -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root  39948 Oct 23 17:02 mount11:30
sledgesStskeeps: ^11:30
sledgesmagic :D11:31
stephgsledges, the flag may still be present but isn't 'enforced'?11:33
sledgesook11:34
stephgcan you change it?11:34
stephgif you can't, that'd probably be it11:34
stephgas for finding files, find(1) is your friend :)11:35
sledgesstephg: https://pastee.org/8dvs411:35
sledges:(11:35
sledgesi can change it11:35
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stephgthat is very strange11:37
sledgessome posix violations under Arch Linux? %)11:37
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MFaro-Tusinono files re-written sledges11:40
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: :(11:40
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: try ls -l /bin/su11:40
sledges(that of Alt_OS that is)11:40
MFaro-Tusinoin nemo?11:40
MFaro-Tusinoyeah cool11:40
MFaro-Tusino-rwsr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  17232 15 Jul 05:55 /Volumes/Alt_OS/bin/su11:42
sledgesah11:42
sledgesMacOS11:42
sledges;)11:42
MFaro-Tusinowell i was using a ubuntu vm11:42
sledgesto untar?11:42
MFaro-Tusinoyes11:42
MFaro-Tusinoflashing via mac, untar on ubuntu11:42
MFaro-Tusinountiring on OSX gave me permission errors yesterday11:43
sledgesyou can also flash via ubuntu if you "catch" on time11:43
MFaro-Tusinoi know - thats how I used to do it - but I just go OSX because it is easier haha11:43
sledges*ubuntu vm11:45
sledgesnow i don't know why it doesnt boot11:45
sledgeswhich image are you using?11:45
MFaro-Tusinoweird, dmesg says that the linux fs (nemo ) is at sub, but sudo mount /dev/sdb /mount/point gives me mount:no medium found on /dev/sdb11:45
MFaro-Tusinonemo-n950-rnd-2013112011:46
MFaro-Tusino*sdb not sub11:46
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: hang on, which moslo are you using11:48
sledgesare you using overriden zImage ?11:48
sledgesas per instructions11:48
sledgeson wiki11:48
MFaro-Tusinoi am using ubiboot11:48
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sledgesyes, but you said you tried with moslo single boot too11:49
MFaro-Tusinoyes umm one second11:50
sledges11:19 < MFaro-Tusino> though when I did the -l -b load of the moslo it didn't boot after that11:50
MFaro-TusinoI was using the zImage I had a while ago, (around 6-8 months back) - should I be using a newer one?11:50
sledgesyes11:51
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sledgeshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#Single_Boot_by_Loading_The_Kernel_.28TRY_THIS_FIRST.2911:51
sledgesfrom rcg ;)11:51
MFaro-Tusinois the initrd-moslo okay?11:53
sledgesyes11:54
rcgyay, that repository is useful :)11:58
sledgesrcg: you have no idea :D11:58
rcg:D11:58
MFaro-Tusinotrying with that moslo now12:01
sledgesgo gadget go :)12:02
MFaro-Tusinolets see....12:04
MFaro-Tusinookay so i got the memo boot image12:05
sledges\o_12:05
MFaro-Tusinowhich is where i got to yesterday, but then it stopped12:05
sledges_o_12:05
MFaro-Tusinoso not counting my lucky stars yet12:05
MFaro-TusinoYAY!!!!12:05
sledges\o/12:05
MFaro-TusinoI see pretty icons12:05
sledgesgood stuff :))12:06
MFaro-TusinoGlacier UI icons?12:06
sledgesyes12:06
MFaro-TusinoThanks for the help sledges :) You're awesome12:06
sledgesglad I could help12:06
MFaro-TusinoNow time to upgrade it to sailfish :p hehe12:06
sledgeswas about to ask what's next :P12:06
MFaro-Tusinonext is working out why it won't unlock the screen haha12:07
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: wiki :P12:07
sledgeshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#Wayland.2FQt512:07
MFaro-Tusinorebooting to get it to work12:08
MFaro-Tusinoso I can't ubiboot then right?12:08
MFaro-TusinoNeed to flash the zImage you gave me?12:08
sledgesyes12:08
sledgesjust put it to ubiboot12:08
sledgespossession12:08
MFaro-Tusinoexplain? (n00b with ubiboot)12:08
sledgesto use that kernel for nemo12:09
MFaro-Tusinoedit the config file right?12:09
sledgeshow did you enable ubiboot to get to moslo?12:09
Morpog_N9yep12:09
* sledges hides as someone who never used ubiboot %)12:09
MFaro-Tusinoi wasn't :p was just using flasher -l -b to load the kernel manualy12:09
sledgesover to you Morpog_N9 :D12:09
Morpog_N9no no no :)12:10
sledges:D you don't even have nemo on your N9 ;))12:10
Morpog_N9never used it too, but helped someone with same error last night12:10
Morpog_N9or the night before12:10
sledgesi think MFaro-Tusino never got ubiboot setup for nemo at all12:11
MFaro-Tusinoi followed the instructions it told me :/12:11
Morpog_N9just edit ubiboot.conf12:11
sledgesrtfm needed12:11
MFaro-Tusinohttp://wiki.maemo.org/Ubiboot#Install_Nemo_Mobile_OS12:11
sledgesi think you are done with ^ MFaro-Tusino12:13
sledgesyou need to go ahead with http://wiki.maemo.org/Ubiboot#Flash_the_Device_with_Ubiboot-0212:13
sledgesand it should *just work*12:13
sledgesxD12:13
MFaro-Tusinoi did that dude - I am not that retarded12:13
MFaro-TusinoI have been hacking on N9 for a while12:13
MFaro-TusinoI just need to edit conf i am pretty sure12:14
sledgesis not that simple, and im certain you know what you are doing mate12:15
MFaro-TusinoIf I had just used the moslo directly in the first place, and not listened to people who said go with ubiboot, i would have been done so much sooner hah12:16
sledgesconfig needs to be edited only if you see portions of splashscreen, but nemo continues to load12:17
sledgesfrom you i understood that attempts to load nemo from ubiboot were advancing even less12:17
sledges(if at all)12:17
MFaro-Tusinoseems nemo loaded this time :/12:18
MFaro-Tusinothough it is laggy to th point where I can't enable wifi to ssh in12:19
sledgeslaggy from ubiboot?12:23
sledgesthen config file time ;)12:23
sledgeswhich says things about mem :)12:23
sledgesyou can try typing `free` in fingerterm for a laugh12:23
MFaro-Tusinoi wish i could even get to the point where it opened a terminal sledges :p12:24
sledges:))12:25
sledgesyou can ssh via cable12:25
MFaro-Tusinodo i not need to enable ssh via cable though in memo?12:25
MFaro-Tusino*nemo12:25
sledgesno12:25
MFaro-Tusinookay cool12:25
sledgesssh over usb is always on12:25
MFaro-Tusino192.168.2.15 i assume?12:26
sledgesyes12:27
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MFaro-Tusinomemo for user and password?12:31
MFaro-Tusino*nemo12:31
MFaro-Tusinobloody os x auto correct12:31
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sledgesyes12:38
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MFaro-Tusinoit won't ssh - erghh12:44
sledgesO_o12:44
MFaro-Tusinotelnet doesn't seem to do anything eithet12:44
sledgesubuntu vm?12:44
MFaro-Tusino*either12:44
MFaro-Tusinoyes12:44
sledgeshmph12:44
sledgesping ?12:45
MFaro-Tusinodmesg registers it as being attached12:45
sledgesifconfig in order?12:45
sledgesnetworkmanager might have shuffled your cards12:45
MFaro-Tusinohttp://wiki.maemo.org/Ubiboot#Install_Nemo_Mobile_OS12:46
MFaro-Tusinoergh12:46
MFaro-Tusinoping 192.168.2.1512:46
MFaro-TusinoPING 192.168.2.15 (192.168.2.15) 56(84) bytes of data.12:46
MFaro-Tusino^C12:46
MFaro-Tusino--- 192.168.2.15 ping statistics ---12:46
MFaro-Tusino51 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 50185ms12:46
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: ifconfig usb012:47
sledges(use pastee pls)12:47
MFaro-Tusinohttp://pastebin.kde.org/pgu0ypo3d12:48
sledgesso where is your ip? ;)12:48
sledgesifconfig usb0 192.168.2.1412:48
sledgesmust be the networkmanager resetting it12:48
sledgesif so, remedy: https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/USBNetworking12:48
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MFaro-Tusinonext problem hahah12:58
MFaro-Tusinossh: connect to host 192.168.2.14 port 22: Connection refused12:58
sledgesnmap 192.168.2.1412:59
sledgesprobably sshd did not start because of out-of-memory..12:59
sledgesanyway, congrats now you've learnt to ssh in a (working) nemo (in the future) :)12:59
sledgestime to see that ubiboot config12:59
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wazdhey people13:01
MFaro-Tusinohttp://pastebin.kde.org/pgni5gjqu13:02
MFaro-Tusino^ mmap output13:02
MFaro-Tusino*nmap13:02
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: you have some same subnets13:02
sledgesnemo is not hosting http server ;)13:02
sledgestry http://192.168.2.14 in your host browser :D13:03
sledgessee what you see13:03
sledgeswazd: \o13:03
MFaro-Tusinoproblem loading page13:03
MFaro-Tusinocan't establish connection13:04
MFaro-Tusinorunning nmap again, after doing ifconfig again, I get this13:04
MFaro-Tusinohttp://pastebin.kde.org/pmy9jwnc113:04
sledgesright13:04
sledgesoh well, see my line before about oom13:05
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sledgesif your network is ok13:05
sledges(80, 8080 !? :D)13:05
MFaro-Tusinooom?13:10
sledgesout-of-memory13:10
MFaro-Tusinoahh13:10
MFaro-Tusinoso i need to reboot and allow ubiboot to export partitions and edit the conf?13:11
sledgesi guess so, Morpog_N9 ?13:11
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MFaro-TusinoI think I will just ref lash, and go straight to moslo13:25
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: why? reboot and edit config13:26
MFaro-Tusinowhat am i supposed to edit?13:27
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sledgeshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptation/N9-N950/Wayland#Boot_:_ubiboot__.28ONLY_NEEDED_FOR_UBIBOOT_0.3.4_OR_OLDER.2913:30
Morpog_N9exactly that13:39
Morpog_N9only change that line with ram13:39
MFaro-Tusinowell I must have the new ubiboot13:42
MFaro-Tusinobecause it''s there13:42
MFaro-Tusinokind of13:42
MFaro-Tusinohttp://pastebin.kde.org/pnhio6bia13:42
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sledgesMFaro-Tusino: that doesnt look like /boot/ubiboot.conf13:46
MFaro-Tusinoits part of it13:46
sledgesjuiceme: ^13:46
sledgesah13:46
sledgescan I see G_NEMO_INITSCRIPT ?13:46
MFaro-TusinoThat is G_OS3_INITSCRIPT="\/sbin\/init"13:46
sledgesit should read NEMO in latest ubiboot13:47
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MFaro-Tusinoyou 100% sure? Because I downloaded that less than 6 hours ago using the link given on Wiki.maemo.org13:48
sledgesim not 100% sure, but I see a patch and expect that; unless things changed even more. if you are sure OS3 is nemo, put that cmdline in13:49
sledges(add \ vram\=6m\ omapfb.vram\=0\:6M )13:50
sledgesah, it's already added with _APPENDS (dog)13:51
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sledges(doh) :D13:51
* sledges close enough %)13:51
MFaro-Tusinocorrect - you see what I mean now13:51
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: can be that "slowness" is because of "frozen homescreen bug"13:52
sledgesas per text in red https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/Installing#Wayland.2FQt513:52
sledges(not on every boot)13:52
MFaro-TusinoI assume so - but I can't ssh in to find out13:53
MFaro-Tusinoso far its been every boot13:53
sledgesjust boot via moslo13:53
sledgesyou said that worked fine13:53
MFaro-Tusinono that got stuck too (well on lock screen)13:53
sledgestry moslo13:53
sledgesto ssh13:53
sledgesfrozen screen does not affect sshd starting13:54
MFaro-Tusinookay13:55
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MFaro-Tusinoyay i am in!13:57
MFaro-TusinoTime to follow the unfreeze instructions13:57
sledges\yay/13:57
MFaro-TusinoTurns out sshd doesn't like mac13:58
MFaro-Tusinoand it was defaulting to mac everytime13:58
sledges<- what he said13:58
MFaro-TusinoSo set the vm to e default and it worked13:58
sledgeswe had sandy_locke with same probs..13:58
MFaro-Tusinohence why before i had to use ifconfig as mac would take over after 30secs13:58
HurrianAnyone have the battery indicator working right?14:00
sledgesHurrian: nope14:00
Hurrianlooks like the move to statefs broke it14:01
sledgeshang on14:01
HurrianI got sounds and haptics working though, and I'm a happy-enough camper.14:01
sledgesdo we have an indicator? :D14:01
sledgesah, sailfish..14:02
locusfsledges: so about label .. I repushed the commit removing the bits about alignment14:02
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sledgeslocusf: everything merged already14:02
sledges;)14:02
locusfoh14:02
locusfok thanks :)14:02
MFaro-Tusinoergggh - ubuntu is not taking input in terminal trying to do the zipper command, I swear - nothing is in my fvour today14:03
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MFaro-TusinoOf course, I am limited to what I can do to unfreeze, seeing as I can't enable wifi14:05
HurrianMFaro-Tusino: you can't enable WiFi?14:06
MFaro-TusinoI can't do anything UI related, so if you can tell me how to enable wifi using terminal, that would be great14:06
HurrianMFaro-Tusino: I prepared my Nemofish by starting from SourenAraya's 0.0.2 image, then running the n950club steps on top of it.14:07
HurrianI made sure to pin ngfd-related packages so that sounds etc work.14:08
MFaro-TusinoSee, I tried using the 0.0.2 image yesterday, but it didn't boot14:08
HurrianI have not run zypper dup to downgrade to the mer-core that Sailfish ships, just to note.14:08
MFaro-Tusinodo i extract it just like normal nemo roots?14:08
HurrianI'll backup, pin more packages, then run the distribution upgrade tomorrow.14:08
HurrianYep, you just extract the bz2 somewhere.14:09
MFaro-Tusinookay14:10
MFaro-TusinoI will try that again14:10
HurrianJust one issue that I have on my device is that certain things think the N9 is on horizontal orientation.14:10
HurrianI guess it must be holdovers from the N950 port.14:10
MFaro-Tusinoyeah, I have heard that even N950 has orientation issues, so gestures are weird14:11
HurrianThe notification bar, WiFi connection dialog and push areas are all rotated. If anyone can point me to a solution, that'd be nice14:11
HurrianPush gesture orientation works just fine on SourenAraya's 0.0.2 image, it somehow broke in between.14:12
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: network manager takes over, now that you sorted mac14:13
sledgesjust whenever it freezes, type ifconfig usb0 192.168.2.15 in another window14:13
MFaro-TusinoI did14:13
sledgesto save all activities, run in screen session too14:13
MFaro-Tusinobut still limited due to no wifi :p14:13
sledgesMFaro-Tusino:14:14
sledgeshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Nemo/USBNetworking14:14
sledgesto do "internet connection sharing" :))14:14
Hurriansledges: and make sure to add default gw and nameserver to resolv.conf too ;)14:14
sledgeseh the guy from yesterday didn't do that &)14:15
MFaro-TusinoSo that will share the internet from my PC to N9?14:15
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: yes14:15
MFaro-Tusinointeresting, didn't know it could work the other way. Knew you could use phone as Modem for PC14:15
sledgesanything can work in linux world *g*14:15
Hurriansledges: BTW, what's broken with the camera under Wayland? IIRC it's broken under Nemo too.14:15
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: refresh page ;)14:16
sledgesHurrian: gst plugin ?14:16
Hurrianah, yep, camerabin tells me plugin's "missing"14:16
MFaro-Tusinookay so 15 mins later of reconnecting Nemo to ubuntu VM - I think i've done it14:32
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sledgesStskeeps: 14:45 < module000> sledges: also, the man page says it doens't allow the bits to take effect - not that they aren't still settable/readable14:46
sledgesthe suid bit14:46
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xavinuxHi people15:18
faenilxavinux, hi :)15:21
xavinuxfaemil: how are you15:21
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sledgesxavinux: 100years!15:26
sledges:)15:26
xavinuxhey sledges, howa are you, please to meet you again!....yes seems to be 100 year ago :)15:27
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faenilxavinux, fine, fine :)15:31
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sledgesbusy times xavinux :) how have you been?15:54
xavinuxvery busy times here too...15:57
xavinuxand how does the new Nemo UX project goes sledges?15:58
sledgessome great progress in design and components15:58
sledgesslowed down lately15:59
sledgesbut recently nemo's installation and hardware adaptation bug hunt got fuelled by Nemofish interest ;)15:59
xavinuxah ok16:00
xavinuxNemofish?16:01
xavinuxsorry out of date....16:01
sledgesSailfish on Nemo (N9/950)16:02
vgrade\o16:03
vgradewhat package sets /home/nemo to 10000:1000016:04
vgradeduring mic install16:05
sledgesvgrade: would rpm -qf /home/nemo16:05
sledgeswork?16:05
vgradesledges: it would16:05
xavinuxsledeges: so working on running Sailfish on the N9?16:06
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Stskeepsvgrade: mic itself16:07
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vgradeStskeeps: interesting16:07
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sledgesxavinux: many people around are working on that yes :)16:15
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xavinuxgreat16:19
xavinuxsledges: something I can do to help?16:19
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sledgesxavinux: restore your blog? ;)16:24
sledgesit lost some nice articles16:24
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xavinuxsledges: which ones?16:25
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sledgesxavinux: this one e.g. http://xavinux.blogspot.com.ar/2013/06/installing-nemo-i486-vm_18.html16:28
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xavinuxsledges: see http://xavinux.blogspot.com.ar/2013/06/installing-nemo-vm-on-virtualbox.html16:35
sledgesah ;)16:36
sledgesI'll adjust :)16:36
sledgesthanks!16:36
xavinux:)16:36
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sledgesxavinux: how are you doing hardware-wise?16:41
xavinuxsledges: what do you need me to do with hardware?16:48
sledgeshow is your n916:48
sledgesor maybe you managed to obtain jolla phone somehow (have you seen the launch btw?)16:48
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locusfwe could always appreciate more testers :)17:43
locusfalso it would probably be a good time to start doing the homescreen for glacier17:43
locusfIMO17:43
wazdlocusf: I'm sorta on it :)17:45
sledgesxavinux will help out vacuuming the nemo configs, so we can add QT_QUICK_CONTROLS_THEME right after it17:45
sledgesthanks xavinux !17:45
locusfwazd: oh ok :)17:45
wazdlocusf: in terms of design17:45
locusfwazd: cool, lemme know when you have something :)17:45
wazdlocusf: but I'd advise not to rush things too much17:45
locusfwazd: ok cool17:46
sledgeseveryone's smooth sailing :)17:46
wazdlocusf: cause general user experience is not the thing you will be able to tweak later :)17:47
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faenillocusf, nobody is doing components, and you want to start homescreen? :D17:48
sledgesunless you tweak the users17:48
faenilbut yeah, if there are people willing to work on it why not17:48
sledges:)17:48
locusffaenil: well better to start early so we can learn what we need :)17:48
faenillocusf, sure17:48
faenillocusf, but I think we'll be missing quite some components ;)17:48
locusffaenil: do we have specs for absolutely everything yet?17:49
sledgesbut speccing of the homescreen is what would take place now, and from that it would dictate what components are needed more, no?17:49
wazdfaenil: there's no solid concept either for it17:49
nightmare__sledges, hi :)17:50
sledgeshi nightmare__ :)17:50
wazdNo offense but right now we have bunch of idea sketches and a button with no distinct vision of what we want to have17:51
sledgeswazd: we have properly specced components17:51
sledgeshttps://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/17:51
sledgesnot all, but all specs came from ideas (mockups)17:51
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nightmare__wtf with packages of sailfish? day before yesterday not enough only xt9, yesterday xt9 and buteo-*:))))))))17:53
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locusfhmm I could start doing switch17:54
locusfits a checkbox style, right?17:54
wazdlocusf: I don't know17:54
sledgeswazd: http://play.qwazix.com/grog/?p=344 http://hurrian.github.io/glacier/17:54
locusfhttp://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.1/qtquickcontrolsstyles/qmlmodule-qtquick-controls-styles1-qtquick-controls-styles-1-0.html <- we should at least spec these17:54
wazdsledges: the fact is, you've started to do this task from the wrong end :D17:54
sledgeswazd: we started from what we had at hand17:55
wazdsledges: I'll try to explain myself in one broad post at Grog17:55
sledgesnothing is set in stone, we innovate as we progress17:55
wazdsledges: if you don't mind :)17:55
sledgeswazd: before you do, let me backlog qwazix thoughts17:56
sledgeswazd: http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/%23nemomobile.2013-09-24.log.html#t2013-09-24T14:52:1917:58
wazdsledges: sure17:58
sledgescheck that conversation, and should grep for qwazix name the day before and the day after as well, for more insights17:59
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wazdsledges: I see18:01
faenilwazd, what's wrong18:01
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faenillocusf, no, we're missing specs for some components, I told wazd if he wanted to help there :P18:01
locusffaenil: no, on what?18:02
faenil?18:02
locusfwhat do you mean no18:02
wazdsledges: well, people there are still discussing switch corner radius :D18:02
locusfwe shouldn't spec qt quick controls?18:02
faenil"do we have spec for absolutely everything"18:02
locusffaenil: ok18:02
faenilwazd, have you checked the specs in that github repo?18:03
wazdfaenil: everything's right, but timing for that "right" is wrong :)18:03
wazdfaenil: looking at it right niw18:03
wazdnow*18:04
faenilok18:04
faenilbecause that's important stuff to know before discussing :D18:04
wazdfaenil: https://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/blob/75076084323a37deeafa4c06f030756e38e20327/statusbar/statusbar_specs.png18:04
wazdfaenil: for example. What is that? :)18:04
faenilwazd, I had never seen that :) guess it's new18:05
faenilit's the spec for the statusbar, why?18:05
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wazdfaenil: have you discussed statusbar behavior yet?18:05
faenilwazd, I have never heard anything about statusbar yet ;) and that spec is new to me (but I've been very busy since I started internship at jolla so I could have missed discussions here)18:06
sledgesno we haven't set statusbar behaviour set in stone18:06
sledgesbut that does not prevent from speccing its appearance18:07
wazdsledges: yes it does18:07
sledgesthe pr of which qwazix accepted from sandy_locke|away , and everyone was happy18:07
wazdsledges: completely18:07
wazdsledges: it's like designing a car without knowing what should it do18:07
faenil:D18:07
sledgesqwazix is the best person to talk to18:07
wazdsledges: got it18:07
wazdsledges: I mean, maybe we need a goddamn tank, or a bike18:08
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sledgeswhen i spoke to him, he had a vision, but it is changing overtime; i'm already imagining how he will explain this to you, if you didn't read that from the backlog link i sent you18:08
sledgesand i concurr to what he had said18:08
sledgessince you are a designer (i am not), you have your own ways of designing things18:09
sledgesand i am very happy you are expressing them here18:09
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wazdsledges: I've read it. Vision is a great thing, but we have a unique extraordinary opportunity to create something community wise18:09
faenilwazd, now you're talking :P18:09
wazdsledges: And I'm trying not to f this up :D18:09
sledgesas (again in qwazix backlog) he said discussions shape the idea18:09
wazdsledges: ok, I should definitely see him, got it :D18:10
sledgesso let's wait until he wakes up, because I trusted him as design lead, thus not questioning why behaviour is not defined yet etc18:10
sledgesleave that onto you ;)18:10
sledgesnevertheless, looking closely into mockups, status bar is revealed during bottom edge swipe18:11
faenilwazd, are you okay with creating other components specs? or do you think we have to remake the current ones18:11
sledgeswazd: http://hurrian.github.io/glacier/images/QtControls.png18:11
sledges(the bottom edge swipe)18:11
faenilwazd, except the status bar I think the other components have everything defined (or mostly, I've been asking for more details multiple times)18:12
sledgesalso defining how notifications will be18:12
sledgeshttp://play.qwazix.com/grog/?p=640 and Row 2,col 1 of http://play.qwazix.com/grog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SystemUI.png18:12
sledgeswhich gives enough insight that statusbar must be bottom aligned, to spec it that way. spec is also not final ofc18:13
wazdsledges: bottom swipe is the easiest edge gesture user can perform and you (or not you :) want to spoil it to reveal info you need 3 times a day18:13
wazdsledges: that's what I'm talking about18:13
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sledgesbut many many people in this commuity have seen the mockup (designers and engineers)18:14
locusfhmm I hit a reserved word on the theme18:14
sledgesand no-one has expressed concern about bottom notifications (i find that great!)18:14
sledgeswhilst being married with status bar altogether18:15
wazdfaenil: Right now I'm writing a kinda huge post about latest UI/UX components and trends around the industry and wanted to ask people what they find useful in their everyday life18:16
wazdsledges: faenil didn't see that :D18:16
sledgesoh yes he did18:16
faenildid I? :D18:16
sledgeshttp://hurrian.github.io/glacier/images/QtControls.png18:16
sledges^18:16
sledgesit's ages old18:16
sledgesthe mockup18:16
faeniloh yes I saw the pic18:17
sledgesand you saw status bar there18:17
sledgesso18:17
sledgesnow it has been finally specced18:17
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sledgesreferencing the mockup18:17
wazdsledges: I don't see statusbar there :)18:17
faenilit's not a problem for me :)18:17
sledgesin the thirs screenshot18:17
sledgesthird18:17
Stskeepsbtw, do you have url for the original conversation on mailing list that sparked the discussion on how nemo design goes forward..?18:17
Stskeepsjust so people understand when joining18:17
wazdsledges: oh, I see18:18
sledgesyes, but that thread does not specify behaviour/glacier, only technology18:18
wazdStskeeps: o/18:18
Stskeepsmoo wazd18:18
wazdStskeeps: don't hit me :D18:18
wazdStskeeps: I swear I'll behave :D18:18
Stskeepswazd: there's plenty of other people with sticks18:18
Stskeeps:P18:18
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faenilwazd, I'm trusting designers there, unless I see something that is completely fscked up to me :D18:18
faenilwazd, I implement :P18:18
sledgesfaenil: +118:18
sledgesStskeeps: wazd: this could be the genesis: http://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg01287.html18:21
sledgeswith the pre-genesis of http://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg01238.html18:21
sledges:)18:21
* faenil slaps Venemo18:25
faenilah he's not online..18:25
sledgesPS, wazd, discussing switch radius is just a relic from another taken spec, consider it a typo :)18:26
wazdsledges: ok :)18:27
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qwazixabout status bar, "revealed with bottom swipe" while correct, leads to misunderstandings18:28
sledges^_^18:28
wazdqwazix: o/18:28
qwazixthe idea about the statusbar is that it is always there, on the homescreen18:28
sledgess/bottom swipe/bottom swipe an app/ :")18:28
qwazixso if you want to peek it, you can swipe a tiny bit from the bottom18:28
qwazixyou can continue swiping to send the app in the background, just like the N918:29
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qwazix(BB10 has the same 'peek' behaviour though you swipe from the bottom and the app zooms out so you see the time on the statusbar which is on the top of the homescreen)18:29
qwazixwazd, \o18:30
wazdqwazix: what about fingers?18:30
qwazixfingers?18:30
wazdqwazix: you will not see 50% of the statusbar if you'll try to "peek" a bit with your thumb18:31
qwazixvalid, you can swipe a bit more, or we could rethink that and put it on the top if there are no compelling reasons otherwise18:32
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qwazixbut as you said the bottom swipe is the easiest, and I think peeking to see the time is a pretty usual interaction18:32
wazdqwazix: actually thumb is a "son of a bitch" of all fingers, cause it gets even thicker closer to the joint18:33
Morpog_MobileWazd think of the n9 quick launcher18:34
Morpog_MobileQuick swipe up and hold snaps to it18:34
wazdqwazix: so the "higher" you pull an app, the lesser you see :D18:34
wazdqwazix: unless you have that 5" shovel of course :D18:34
* sledges enjoys reading this very much, but has to hit the road, laters ^_^18:35
wazdsledges: cya18:35
qwazixusually the thumb is perpendicular to the phone, so I wouldn't agree that the above is true18:35
wazdMorpog_Mobile: I've found this concept elegant yet reeealy tricky18:35
wazdMorpog_Mobile: maybe it's a matter of tweaking timings and zones, but I has lots of fault launches on my n95018:36
wazdhad*18:36
qwazixalso putting it on top, we risk the user closing the app accidentally (if we're going to keep swipe down to close)18:37
wazdqwazix: a sec, I'll post a photo18:37
faenilwazd, you usually swipe from the side, not from the bottom18:37
wazdqwazix: and this is true for sure18:37
faenilI mean, your thumb joint is at the side of the screen, not bottom18:37
faenilso swiping up doesn't hide the bar18:37
qwazixwazd, no reason to use timing like on the N918:37
wazdqwazix: sure18:38
qwazixwe will use only positioning. 3 possible states. Fullscreen app, statusbar visible and app shrinked to fit, no app and homescreen visible18:38
faenilqwazix, app shrinked is really undoable imho18:39
faenilbecause of performance18:39
wazdoook, I'll post that photo later, cause I don't have any other charged camera other than BB :D18:39
faeniland because of layouting18:39
qwazixfaenil, we should find some tricks to do it18:39
qwazixlike when keyboard goes up18:39
faenilqwazix, when the keyboard goes up the window is just resized18:39
qwazixI really think that's our differentiating factor18:39
faenilnot animated while it moves18:40
faenilI really think that won't happen :P (unless we accept issues which that brings)18:40
qwazixfaenil, that can be done in that case too: move it to position, and if the user releases in that position resize18:40
faenilqwazix, mmm :/18:41
qwazix(can also be done with header IMO, move everything out of screen as long as the swipe is in motion, and instantly resize upon release)18:41
faenil:/ not sure that's visually pleasing :/18:42
qwazix(by the way resizing of animated windows is there on the desktop since back when pc's were less capable than today's phones)18:42
faenilqwazix, yes, but at that times apps didn't do anything on screen, almost :P18:43
qwazixphotoshop comes to mind...18:43
faenilnow we have dynamic layout...18:44
faenilI think I already told you about this example18:44
faenilbut, imagine a drawing app18:44
faenilyou cannot force it to be functional with half the screen18:44
faenilthat is a too strong assumption imho18:44
faenilor whatever app has a custom UI18:44
faeniland not just lists and menus18:45
faenilcan you image a videogame resize with different aspect ratio? :D18:45
qwazixI think it's worth giving it a try, and if it has a real impact on performance that we can't handle, we'll be forced to make the drawer just a modal overlay. Not too much of a change18:45
faenilqwazix, tell me how you handle videogames ;)18:46
qwazixgames have custom UI's always, no headerDocks18:46
locusfgrr again black screen on components gallery view18:46
faenilqwazix, there's no need to make it modal18:46
faenillocusf, ?18:47
locusffaenil: I can't see my subpage even though I got it in qrc18:47
faenilqwazix, yes but if you want to see the status bar...18:47
qwazixfaenil, true, even that's an almost good stopgap18:47
locusffaenil: for switch18:47
faenilqwazix, ?18:47
faenillocusf, not following, qml issue? :)18:47
qwazixfaenil, not making it modal18:47
locusffaenil: yes18:47
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qwazixabout the games, on the N9 they had special behavior (locked swipes)18:48
faenilqwazix, yes I'd just make the drawer a non-modal overylay18:48
faenilqwazix, so you can't see the status bar in games...18:48
faenil(with the swip gesture)18:48
qwazixfaenil, on the N9 only when paused18:48
qwazixand we could do that too for nemo18:49
faenilqwazix, okay, let's suppose the game is paused18:49
faeniland you resize its window18:49
faenilwhat happens to the menu? and the graphics?18:49
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faenilwazd, you still alive? D:18:50
qwazixthat's up to the developer: we might ponder giving an option to not support the resized state, or just force him to be resizeable on paused state18:50
faenilqwazix, so you want to force devs to support a resized state with different ratio..18:50
qwazixfaenil, we can discuss this, as I said, we can give an option to not allow resized state, just like orientationLock18:51
faenilqwazix, yes but even if you don't allow resized state, what happens?18:51
faenilthey can't use status bar?18:51
qwazixbut most apps come already with the resizing functionality for free due to vkb18:51
faenilqwazix, not most, most is games :P18:51
qwazixI used the word app as in "not game"18:52
faenilok18:52
faenilI think it's useless effort, this said, majority wins :)18:52
qwazixfor the apps that don't allow resized state, functionality is like the N9 fullscreen apps18:52
locusffaenil: could you check if I'm missing something again https://github.com/locusf/qtquickcontrols-nemo/commit/14e161f33aec0906e6914c972cac56e3784d6c3718:53
faenilbut why forcing people to do that, what's the gain18:53
qwazixyou can peek the status bar but not have it always visible as you work (which would be pointless for games anyway - who wants a windowed game?)18:53
qwazixIt's all about choice. I prefer to have fullscreen apps, but I'm sure many people would be annoyed not to have time/connection info/battery always visible18:54
faenilqwazix, and why can't you do that without resizing the screen18:54
faenilI prefer fullscreen apps as well18:54
faenilI just don't understand the gain in resizing the window18:55
qwazixfaenil, how would you do it without resizing the screen?18:55
faeniljust push it out on the other size?18:55
faenilside*18:55
locusfhmm forgot to hit ctrl+s on qrc, argh18:55
qwazixand the controls that are there?18:55
faenilqwazix, I think I'm missing something18:56
qwazixokay, let me describe it again18:56
qwazixgrab your N9 and bring up the quick launch menu18:56
faenilso you want the user to be able to keep the status bar only (small height) there, or just push it away18:56
faenillike in qtcomponents18:56
wazdsorry, been afk18:56
qwazixnow imagine the quick bar to be the statusbar (less height obviously)18:57
locusffaenil: never mind, I got it working18:57
faenillocusf, are you sure we need a ComboBox.qml?18:57
qwazixwouldn't it be very nice to still be able to use your app?18:57
locusffaenil: you mean Checkbox.qml?18:57
locusfprobably not18:57
faenillocusf, just sayiing, I don't remember perfectly how it works and what's needed there18:58
faenilat the same time if the use keeps swiping he sends the app to bg19:01
faeniluser*19:01
qwazixyep19:01
faenilso imagine the user keeps swiping up, and you keep resizing the window...19:02
qwazix(similar experience: blackberry browser, open the tabs pane, you can leave only the tab previews visible)19:02
qwazixyou don't keep resizing the window19:02
faenilisn't that what you said19:03
qwazixI see two possible animations: (a) resize till you reach height=screen-statusbarHeight and then just move19:03
qwazixor (b) just move like the N9 does, and just before the app snaps in place, resize to fit19:04
faenilb is the only option imho19:04
locusfhmm oh yeah, I can test qtquickcontrols-nemo on my Jolla too19:05
qwazixmaybe we can test both. I somehow feel that it shouldn't be too heavy but I dunno19:06
faenillocusf, :D19:06
wazdlets forget about statusbar for a sec19:06
faenilqwazix, yes why not19:07
faenilqwazix, I'm still not sure you'll want to force custom UI apps to do that extra work, but we'll see19:07
wazdqwazix: what's the main goal of the Glacier ui, what problem does it solve (other than being opensourced)?19:07
faenilwazd, I think being opensource is enough :P19:08
qwazixIt solves the problem of you being able to use your phone, basically19:08
faenilwazd, but it's a playground for community, a place for innovation19:08
wazdfaenil: why not just copy sailfish/harmattan19:08
faenilwazd, reread my last sentence :P19:08
wazdfaenil: each innovation should solve some current problem19:08
qwazixthat.19:08
wazdfaenil: "Don't fix what's working" :P19:09
faenilwazd, no it's not like that19:09
qwazixwazd, it's like going to the gnome people and telling them "why didn't you copy kde"19:09
qwazix(or worst, Windows)19:09
faenilif I have to do my thing I won't just copy someone else19:09
faeniljust because it works...19:09
wazdfaenil: well, it doesn't work in terms of source19:10
wazdfaenil: but it works in terms of usability19:10
faenilwazd, yes, but I won't spend my free time to make an opensource copy of something which already exists19:10
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faenilnot appealing, at all19:10
faenil:)19:10
qwazix+119:10
wazdfaenil: so it's innovation just for the sake of innovation?19:11
EztranSo, why didn't the Gnome guys copy KDE? Because they have a different focus. I think wazd's asking what that focus is meant to be, here?19:11
wazdfaenil: do you have problems with current UIs around?19:11
faenilwazd, to me it is :D I just want to have fun and learn :D19:11
faenilwazd, I don't have big UI requests19:11
qwazixdefine problems19:11
faenilI accept most of the stuff as long as it's 60fps with no jittering19:11
faenilalso 50fps, but no jittering please19:12
wazdqwazix: well, something that doesn't work right from your perspective19:12
qwazixI mean iOS6 didn't have problems but they ditched it and did iOS719:12
qwazixwazd, no I don't think harmattan doesn't work right, but i do believe we can do better19:12
EztranSurely looking for reasons would be better than examples?19:12
wazdqwazix: they had internal issues with leaving heads :)19:12
qwazixEztran, you are right, but it's the first time somebody asks me to elaborate why I think doing something new is better than copying an old one.19:13
wazdqwazix: guy responsible for UI left, Ive took his duty and gone into copycating rampage for a year :D19:13
qwazixso I resorted to the bad use of examples. I apologize19:13
EztranOne thing I do think Nemo seems to have been aiming for (like Sailfish) is speed and productivity of interaction. Many mobile OS' don't do that very well at all.19:14
wazdqwazix: why do you use wheels may I ask? :)19:14
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wazdqwazix: I mean. you can surely come up with sometthing new19:15
locusfnothing provides qt5-qtquickcontrols :/19:15
qwazixwazd, okay let me rephrase, the iOS example was bad, I was trying to say something about every new piece of software19:16
faenilwazd, I'd surely work on a new wheel if that was my passion19:16
qwazixThe idea is that mobile UI's (post iPhone era) are something still very young19:16
faeniland I guess millions of people have tried that already19:16
qwazixand just like desktop UI's in the 90's they evolved pretty fast19:17
qwazixsee how new interactions have caught up and are being used in all systems in just a couple of years19:17
qwazix(pull to refresh, edge swipes, pull down menus etc. etc.)19:17
qwazixso sticking with a UI that's three years old just because it works is IMO just anachronistic19:18
qwazix(especially if we have to re-do it anyway, if we had it free the case would be different)19:19
EztranWell, maybe they do work. But do they work well? (IMO, not often) And what can Nemo improve on?19:19
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qwazixso as we are going to do it from scratch whether we like it or not, blindly copying it is non-creative and short-sighted19:20
qwazixso we are looking all over the place for new interactions, patterns, designs etc. and copy what we like best19:20
faenilwazd, would you spend your time on doing the OSS copy of an existing UI?19:20
qwazixif it fits to our overall design/usage pattern we keep it, otherwise we ditch it, by discussing it here19:21
qwazix(and I like to believe we've invented one or two things here too that make some interactions/usecases easier or just more beautiful)19:22
Eztran(If I'm going too far with this, please say) Does that suggest the problem with other mobile UX's is that they don't fit our usage patterns?19:22
qwazixEztran, I find it difficult to say yes because I don't think there's a real problem with the recent mobile UI's, but rather that they can be improved to fit our usage patterns more19:23
qwazixour == power user19:23
qwazixmy monologue was lethal, everybody is dead :-(19:26
faenillol19:26
EztranRight, so I'd take the closest thing to wazd's 'problem to solve' here to be simply that a recent mobile UI might not fit a power user?19:26
wazdi'm here, a sec19:27
faenilI said my opinion, I just want to learn new stuff and have fun with virtual mates :) and build something unique and new :) no matter how needed that is19:27
faenilactually, scratch the last part19:27
faenilit is very important that there is no other OSS alternative to Nemo for mobiles with Qt5 and Wayland19:28
qwazixEztran, maybe you can say that. On the other hand evolution is just that, always improve sometimes without clear view of why.19:28
qwazixPeople couldn't see the point of gigahertz's in your pocket but here we are19:29
EztranMight've been stretching it a bit far, was just trying out that idea.19:29
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EztranI'd personally welcome something a bit different on a mobile. Mainly because just about everything (possibly Sailfish aside) seems to be pretty similar.19:30
qwazixbut what faenil says is equally important too, we want to be creative and then be proud of what we did. Copying an existing thing wouldn't qualify either.19:30
EztranThrowing around concepts might not always improve things, but where it does, you might just get something nobody else could reach.19:30
faenilEztran, it's playground after all, we're not building a commercial product ;)19:32
faenilwe're experimenting, there are no rules here \o/19:32
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EztranYeah, and I think that actually improves the chances of making something decent, in a way.19:34
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wazdok, I'm back19:46
wazdsorry for silence19:46
qwazixcomments?19:50
locusfwhee, animations :)19:50
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qwazixso just like any other app, when it hangs you got to close it20:23
wazdqwazix: it's still a browser with all its luggage20:24
qwazixirrelevant from a UI perspective20:24
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qwazixit's an icon on your desktop which opens something that has no other UI than that of your webapp20:24
qwazixnow if it's laggy or unstable it's another story20:25
wazdqwazix: ok, so we have browser that needs some kind of "fullscreen mode", what else, book reader... any other ideas?20:25
qwazixi lost you here20:25
wazdqwazix: imagine you don't have that fancy tag20:26
qwazixok20:26
wazdqwazix: you just want to get rid of useless navigation20:26
qwazixscroll down :P20:26
wazdqwazix: useless at a point of time of course20:26
qwazixok I admit that has it's problems with apps that have layout20:27
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wazdqwazix: it will not work with web apps without that tag20:27
wazdqwazix: I mean at all, with web apps at all,  :)20:27
wazdqwazix: sorry, it's getting late in here :)20:28
qwazixthere are various ways to have a full screen mode browser20:28
qwazixour icefox concept uses the scroll one, but that can be tweaked20:29
qwazix(or you can just report a window height which does include the navigation, so that apps that are meant to be fullscreen to work alright)20:30
qwazixthis can also be solved on the side of the webapp too (try opening facebook mobile on iOS - it autoscrolls to 0 so that you can't see the safari navigation)20:31
faenilso, what is the conclusion to this discussion? :D20:31
qwazixI don't know where wazd is taking it, to be frank20:31
wazdqwazix: what I'm trying to say, illustrating my "problem\solution" method is I was thinking about implementing some kind of universal way for apps to go full/part screen20:32
wazdqwazix: and came up with this (partially thanks to BB10 semi-good concept :P20:32
qwazixthis being?20:32
wazdqwazix: give me a break, I've been looking for a link :D20:33
wazdqwazix: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96361817/Jolla/Goldfish%20UI/2.png20:33
wazdhttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96361817/Jolla/Goldfish%20UI/1.png <- and this is fullscreen20:33
wazdqwazix: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96361817/Jolla/Goldfish%20UI/3.png <- and this is minimized20:34
wazdalso shows "forced controls" idea :)20:34
qwazixI'm not sure I get how this works20:35
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wazdqwazix: well, you launch app, it appears in, lets call it "UI view", choose tab or whatever you want to view, tap it - it goes fullscreen. Edge swipe up to zoom out to UI view again20:39
wazdIf your app needs "forced controls" to be shown anyway across the app, it looks like glassy bar on top/bottom20:41
wazdicons and tabs on top are completely random :)20:42
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wazddouble swipe or long swipe to the top minimizes app20:43
faenildouble swip? :D20:43
wazdfaenil: well, technicaly swipe is quite a quick gesture20:44
faenilwhat is a double swipe :)20:44
wazdfaenil: so it will take half a second to do it twice20:44
wazdfaenil:  first swipe to return to UI view, second to minimize20:45
faenilah ok, so you always have to go through the "tabbed" view20:45
wazdfaenil: tabs are confusing but they are there just for "place some random sht and see what happens" sake :D20:46
wazdfaenil: I'm more into combining tabs with window headers20:46
wazdfaenil: sorta like WinPho did20:46
faenilwazd, yes whatever20:47
faenilbut the concept is that you always have to go through the main screen20:47
faenilbefore going back to homescreen20:47
wazdfaenil: you can swipe a bit higher to minimize it instantly20:47
wazdfaenil: like, to the middle of the screen20:47
faenilwazd, better20:48
wazdfaenil: or higher, subject of testing :)20:48
wazdfaenil: you can even defy it according to your fingers and screen size20:48
wazdfaenil: or your coordination :D20:49
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faenilyeah well that's just a setting :)20:49
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wazdfaenil: there's no setting for Harmattans quick launcher though :P20:49
faenilwazd, that's because it had to be a mass consumer product :)20:49
wazdfaenil: and this concept shows that you don't have to stick to current concepts to solve a problem20:50
wazdfaenil: it's not just "gotofullscreen" button20:50
wazdLike maemo 5 had20:50
faenilwazd, the problem thing doesn't make much sense imho20:50
faenilI mean it makes sense of course20:50
faenilif you know about problems you think about a way to fix them20:51
faenilbut if can't put problems on paper that doesn't mean you shouldn't play and try to revolutionize the world :P20:51
faenilproblems will appear as we go through the planning20:51
faeniland we'll fix them as we go20:51
faenil(this OS does the switch this way, we don't like it, we'll do it this way)20:52
faenilbut it's not like you know the problems when you start20:52
faenilthat's just a rare and ideal case20:52
faenilyou know all the issues and you just write a plan to fix those20:52
wazdfaenil: We can ask people what issues do they have20:53
wazdfaenil: and try to fix them20:53
faenilwazd, why not going through them as we've been doing so far?20:54
wazdfaenil: issues, not people :D20:54
faenilI really don't undersatnd...20:54
wazdfaenil: cause we're in a unique position and yet acting like any other ordinary company. Instead of exploding with community effort we'll be back on designer proposes/people react ball game. Why not switch sides?20:56
qwazixbecause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee20:56
faenilwazd, ??20:56
faenilwazd, we've been posting to mailing list20:57
faeniland having discussions here in the opne20:57
faenilwazd, should we go knock the door of people?20:57
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faenilwazd, there were also surveys about homescreen going out few months ago20:58
wazdfaenil: didn't know that, that's great20:58
qwazixI really don't dig the mechanistic problem=>solution approach. IMO you should ask yourself how does an awesome frobbler app look/behave? And then after you have a nice concept in your head (or in the hivemind, by discussing here and brainstorming)20:58
wazdqwazix: that's not an issue since you're still the one in charge20:59
qwazixyou do a mockup. Then various "how to do this or that?" emerge.20:59
qwazixYou then look around how others did it. Back here to discuss again, somebody thinks a reason why it doesn't work good, and we backtrack. Then we spec and implement. And some times we must fix even at that late stage21:00
qwazixI don't see myself as "in charge". I'm just setting a mood, and I suppose I'd have a final say in case we really can't decide, which hasn't happened yet I have to say.21:01
wazdqwazix: add "Why other frobbler apps suck and we should do our own thing" in the beginning of the cycle and here you go.21:01
wazdApps suck -> you make better21:01
wazdThere's no app at all like this -> you make your own21:01
wazdYou don't do apps just because21:02
wazdUnless you have a rich uncle :D21:02
qwazixSome apps do suck, some don't.21:02
faenilwazd, finding something that sucks is not a condition to our UI effort, what's wrong with that :D21:02
qwazixand yeah I do apps just because21:02
faenilwazd, having an OSS distro based on Qt5 and Wayland is enough reason21:03
faenilI don't need to find something that sucks, as there's no competitor in this arena ;)21:03
wazdfaenil: qwazix: http://www.youtube.com/user/TATMobileUI <- do you know these guys?21:04
wazdfaenil: qwazix: they've been quite popular befor BlackBerry bought them21:05
faenilwell I heard them when hanging in BB chat21:05
faenilabout* them21:05
qwazixI think that in the end it's how you decide to see it. If you go back to the statusbar backlog, you could almost certainly prepend a "why do other statusbars suck?" and the discussion would still make sense21:05
wazdfaenil: they have shtloads of revolutionary UIs that doesn't do anything21:06
wazdfaenil: and yet no product to utilize their ideas21:06
faenilwazd, pity :)21:06
faenilqwazix, +121:07
wazdqwazix: so, why do they suck? :D21:07
wazdqwazix: it's what I've been asking from the beginning, what's wrong with Harmattans for instance21:08
qwazixwazd, that's why I'm on nemomobile and not on deviantart, there's a chance the UI we do to actually do something21:08
qwazixwazd, it's always visible21:09
wazdqwazix: not at all, Harmattan even had a flag to hide it21:09
wazdqwazix: try MeeCast21:09
wazdqwazix: it has a setting to show/hide statusbar21:09
faenilApplicationWindow -> showStatusBar21:09
qwazixthe difference is, I didn't think what's wrong with harmattan, I thought, what I like about BB10? or Sailfish21:09
faenil(iirc)21:09
faenilPageStackWindow sorry21:09
qwazixwazd, faenil, irrelevant21:09
faenilwazd, I agree with qwazix21:10
faenilI'm here to have fun and do something new, I don't want to copy other UIs just because they work21:10
wazdso it's not an innovation, it's just collecting different good ideas from different sources21:10
wazdthis method works, see iOS721:10
qwazixone developer could hide the status bar, but most of the apps didn't and that's what the OS was promoting as default behaviour21:10
faenilwazd, well, my idea is to do something completely new21:11
faenilbut UI guys don't like it :D21:11
wazdfaenil: I like it21:11
wazdfaenil: I'm the UI guy too :P21:11
faenilwazd, ahaha :D21:11
qwazixI like it too, just nobody came up with the idea yet (me neither)21:11
faenilwazd, then we need to find a good idea...I have forgot the one I thought about already, we discussed those months ago21:11
wazdfaenil: a good balance between new and old would be awesome.21:12
faenilwazd, yes21:12
faenilwazd, but we still have to style QQC..21:12
faenilso...why don't we do that first? :P21:12
faenil(back to square)21:12
qwazixgot ya!21:12
wazdfaenil: So you just take old, find what's wrong with it, throw it away, and fill the space with new ideas :)21:13
wazdfaenil: just like that21:13
faenilwazd, yes, ok, but components first21:13
faenil:P21:13
wazdfaenil: You need something to crystalize on21:13
wazdBig Bang out of nothing is still just a theory :P21:14
wazdother things in universe were based on something :)21:14
faenilwazd, I think we have a lot of mockups and specs already21:14
faenilit's not like we didn't think things though :P21:14
wazdfaenil: ok, back to specs: https://github.com/qwazix/glacier-controls-spec/blob/master/statusbar/statusbar_specs.png21:15
qwazixand also we took community's consideration heavily too21:15
faenilyeah21:15
qwazixMy initial idea was a bit more radical, faenil liked it too21:15
wazdqwazix: what's the size of a wifi spot element?21:15
wazdqwazix: height21:15
qwazixbut Glacier had bigger fanbase so we chose that to be the first thing to do21:16
wazdqwazix: imagine that this shot is Z10's screen for example21:16
qwazixhere's Breeze http://play.qwazix.com/grog/?p=33121:16
wazdthis item would be small even for a stylus21:16
faenilwazd, I agree that's too small21:17
qwazixwazd, faenil, the list will be a normal glacier listView21:17
qwazixI just missed that when I accepted the PR.21:18
qwazixI'll do a modification (or maybe sandy_locke|away will)21:19
qwazix(the switch also looks small, the same applies)21:20
wazdqwazix: faenil: ohohoh, and btw, I've found a solution for a logo that's beyond awesomeness and I can't hide it from you :D21:22
wazdhttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96361817/Nemo/Logo/2.png21:22
wazdI'm trying to fix my goddamn illustrator to make a proper one but you get the idea :)21:23
qwazixI liked your previous one better to be honest21:23
qwazixbut still logos are something that should change only after a couple of years so I vote to stick to the voted one21:25
wazdqwazix: ah, that's just messing around :)21:26
faenilyeah I liked the previous one more as well :D21:26
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sledgessomething's wrong with backloggers clock: http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23nemomobile/latest.log.html#t2013-12-04T21:25:1021:27
wazdfaenil: it looked like a lock :D21:27
sledges(pointing to the last line now *g*) - tbr ?21:27
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sledgesI very much liked your icon(s) wazd , and very much liked the idea to see Nemo V2 with those icons ^_^21:29
tbrsledges: i'm out, but isnt it utc?21:29
sledgestbr: it's 20 minutes off21:30
wazdsledges: let's stick to the V1 first :)21:30
tbrooooh21:30
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wazdqwazix, faenil: thanks a lot guys for nice talk, I have to take a nap for a bit :)21:31
tbrlbt: *poke* clock drift on irc bot vm?21:31
qwazixI'm off too to watch a movie or something.21:31
wazdcya all21:31
qwazixbye wazd21:31
sledgeswazd: yup, nemo is a playground, and we'll have helluva fun in it! :)21:31
sledgesc'yall21:31
qwazixo/21:32
lbttbr: I just rebooted the phost21:32
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faenilwazd, cya o/21:34
faenilI'm off to bed as well21:34
faenilgnight qwazix sledges21:34
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tbrok21:34
faeniltbr, I forgot about asking that at the devaamo party21:35
faenilcan I borrow the tizen device for a day?21:35
tbrsure21:35
faeniljust the time to port an app to try earn a free phone :D21:35
tbrhehehe21:35
faenilwhich hopefully could become nemo target :D21:35
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faeniltbr, who has the devices?21:37
faenil(who should I bribe :D)21:37
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sledgesnite faenil21:41
onuratii was wondering, why i am not able to connect to my N950 running nemo via ssh (no route to host)21:41
onuratiall ports seem sealed21:41
onuration the phone, i can ssh to localhost -> sshd running21:42
tbrfaenil: it's in newfactory. go there ask smoinen21:42
sledgesonurati: your local network setup? can you ping the phone?21:42
faeniltbr, who's smoinen?21:42
onuratisledges: nope, ping doesn't work either21:43
tbrask cybette for details21:43
faeniltbr, ok :P21:43
faenilbbl sleep21:43
sledgesonurati: then your network setup most likely21:43
sledgeswhat does ifconfig say?21:44
onuratisledges: on the same network I have my N9, it is working fine (in developer mode)21:44
sledgeserm21:44
sledgesN9 has built-in DHCP21:44
sledgess/N9/Harmattan21:44
onuratiit gives me the IP properly21:44
sledgesnemo doesn't21:44
sledgesyou need to set static ip21:44
onuratihmm, strangely enough i have internet access on the phone21:45
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sledgeswifi?21:46
onuratiyep21:46
sledgesthat's unrelated21:46
onuratiset it via nemo GUI21:46
tbrdhcp client vs server21:46
sledgesyup, thanks tbr , I mean DHCP server is built in onto the usb wire in harmattan21:47
sledgesonurati: hint: you can ssh into your n950 via wifi too21:47
onuratithat's what i am trying actually21:47
onuratichecked the sshd config and found nothing wrong with it21:48
onuratithought, some kind of policy might be blocking all the ports on the phone21:48
onuratiiptables look empty though21:48
sledgesonurati:21:49
sledgesplease21:49
sledgesrun on your host pc21:49
sledgesifconfig usb021:49
sledgesand pastee the output21:49
sledgesjust to be on the same page21:49
onuratiusb0?21:50
onuratii am not on usb21:50
sledgeswhichever represents your usb cable interface21:50
sledgesor are you saying, that you cannot ssh into the phone via wifi as well?21:50
onuratitrying to ssh to the phone via wifi21:50
sledgesah21:50
sledgeswell, then can try via usb :D21:50
onuratiyes, sorry if i was not clear enough21:50
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sledgesnp, i need some sleep :)21:50
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stephgevening22:32
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fk_lxstephg: hi22:33
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fk_lxStskeeps is sleeping, so temporaily I'm acting as welcome bot :-P22:34
stephgha22:34
stephgalways nice to get a welcome though, so thank you :)22:34
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fk_lx:-)22:43
sledges:)22:46
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sandy_lockeqwazix: seen the backlogs, what is wazd doing ? has he joined the team ?22:57
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sandy_lockealso, about statusbar, we should discuss again about the specs it seems, height & al22:58
sandy_lockeand for wazd, if it's read at some point: we try to solve problems, yes we do, just check Qwazix's blog where we discuss about it ;)22:59
sledgessandy_locke: yes, wazd seems to be getting his feet wet at the moment22:59
sandy_lockeo/ sledges :)22:59
sledges\o sandy_locke :)22:59
sandy_lockeso he works on UI with us ?22:59
sledgesyup22:59
sandy_lockegood :)22:59
sandy_lockehe seems to have a lot to say about what we already did :P23:00
sledgesyes :) he has long gone history too, I wish I was part of Maemo and pre to tell more23:00
sandy_lockebut if thinks we don't try to solve problems, he must not have read all the articles we made about what we specced already ^^23:00
sandy_lockeok, so he is an old timer23:00
sledgestrue, now i'm realising why you wrote a blog accompanying your spec23:01
sandy_lockeI think that I talk for at least qwazix & I when I say that we have no prentention of our stuffs being unique or revolutionary, but we at least try to figure smarter ways to interact with our phones ;)23:03
sandy_lockeand I truly believe we made some points in our articles ...23:04
sandy_lockeanyway, what are you up to sledges those days, been a while since I came chat here...23:04
sledgessandy_locke: looking into freeze bug atm23:05
sledgeswhat about you?23:05
sandy_lockebtw, does anyone know how those accent with javascript work ? I tried those /350 things but it does not always work, and letters are smaller...23:06
sandy_lockeah hope you will succeed :)23:06
sledgesfingers crosscompiled23:06
sandy_lockebeen a while that you peops are working on this ^^23:06
sandy_lockeme I spent the last two days working on a module for a client's website23:06
sledgeswe weren't simply ;)23:06
sandy_lockea chromewheel23:07
sandy_lockeah :P23:07
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sandy_lockeI worked none stop since it was a hurry, and my head is still spinning :P23:08
sledgeshop aboard :)23:08
sandy_locke;)23:09
MFaro-TusinoWhat is that nemo command to get wifi to work?23:20
MFaro-TusinoI forget23:20
sledgescmdline?23:20
sledgesconnman-test package iirc23:20
MFaro-Tusinocommand not found23:21
MFaro-TusinoI remember a while ago, I needed to fiddle so my wifi network shows up23:21
MFaro-Tusinoit wasn't as easy as connman-test package23:21
sledgeshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Sailfish/Exopc23:22
sledgesor23:22
sledgeshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Minimal/Networking23:22
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sledgesneeds `zypper in connman-test` first23:23
MFaro-Tusinoconn man worked, didn't zipper though23:27
MFaro-Tusino*zypper23:27
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sledgesMFaro-Tusino: so you had the package instaled already?23:31
MFaro-Tusinoapparently23:31
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MFaro-Tusinoi need to find my mac address - so I can get the ip my N9 is on to ssh into it, 192.168.2.15 still not being nice to me23:32
onuratisledges: it was a setting on the router, called wlan partitioning, which prevented the communication between the WLAN clients. ssh is ok now.23:34
sledgesonurati: \o/23:36
sledgesMFaro-Tusino: /o\23:36
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MFaro-Tusinosledges: At least this shows that installing memo can be done on OS X :p23:37
MFaro-Tusino*nemo23:37
sledges;) sandy_locke ^23:37
Morpog_Mobilesledges: i guess u gonna hate me for that advice: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1392720#post139272023:37
Morpog_Mobile:D23:37
sandy_lockereading the logs ;)23:37
* sledges looks23:37
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sledgesMorpog_Mobile: hate for scavenging some helpers? noo ;P23:38
sandy_lockeMFaro-Tusino: you try to connect via usb or wifi ?23:39
sledgesim compiling qtbase with debug stuff atm, OBS still trying to download 150MB file for 1 hour, local mersdk build is ongoing, im going to sleep :D23:39
MFaro-Tusinoboth23:39
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Morpog_MobileMore for the peeps asking to setup udb networking or wifi23:39
Morpog_MobileUsb23:39
sandy_lockeconnect into your router's interface and check the internal IP of your device23:39
sandy_lockewifi IP23:39
sandy_lockeand try to connect to it23:39
MFaro-Tusinoyeah Thats what I've done, but i need the mac address of the N9 to know which ip it is ;)23:40
sandy_lockefor me it was "ssh nemo@192.168.1.13"23:40
Morpog_MobilePeeps like MFT :D23:40
sandy_lockeMac is not really into USB tethering23:40
sandy_lockesometimes it work , sometimes it won't...23:40
MFaro-TusinoShh Morpog_Mobile23:40
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MFaro-TusinoI used to be good at this stuff, then went WP for 2 years and go lazy hahah23:40
sandy_lockeI was on WP 2 months23:41
sledges2 days23:41
sandy_lockeI got fed up with the closed software23:41
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sandy_locke^^ sledges ;)23:41
sledgeson HP iPAQ 1930h23:41
sledges;)23:41
sledgesin 200923:41
MFaro-TusinoSee every time I go back to N9/50 I get fed up with the device not just working23:41
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Morpog_MobileI know, you fill my twet wall every night when i sleep michael23:41
MFaro-Tusinosorry Morpog_Mobile :/23:42
sledgesMorpog_Mobile: given last developments, i suspect there's some ssh can of worms in recently dupped versions of nemo; so more testers won't hurt23:42
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sledges:)23:43
sandy_lockeMFaro-Tusino: that's the fun part ;P23:44
MFaro-TusinoIts not the fun part when your phone stops working as a phone when you have an emergency sandy_locke23:44
MFaro-TusinoOMFG! Fingerterm is such sh*t23:45
sandy_lockethen have a feature phone at hand, they never die ;)23:45
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sandy_lockeMFaro-Tusino: did you try ssh via wifi ?23:45
MFaro-Tusinoyeah just found the ip haha23:46
MFaro-Tusino(I have about 15 devices connected to my wifi, so was a lengthy process getting the right mac address of N9 and corresponding ip)23:47
onuratiMFaro-Tusino, you're on N9 in dev. mode?23:47
MFaro-Tusinobooted in nemo23:47
onuratik23:47
MFaro-TusinoYAY! I have ssh in woo23:48
onuratiand now what? upgrade to Jolla?23:49
onuratii mean sailfishos :-)23:49
Morpog_MobileStart develop for nemo ;)23:49
Morpog_MobileScrew sailfish :)23:50
onurati:-)23:50
MFaro-Tusinothis has all been to get sailfish up, so i can test my app, because the emulator sucks23:51
Morpog_MobileNot sure a buggy n9 can help there much23:51
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* Morpog_Mobile strokes his paid Jolla preorder23:52
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onuratiyeah, i am also looking forward to getting mine...23:56
onuratithat's why i thought, i'd install nemo on my n950 today. But the freezing home screen issue forced me to upgrade to sailfish23:57
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leadcan any one help i get grey screen when booting nemo23:59

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