Friday, 2013-08-16

sledgeSimg_night00:04
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tabletteStskeeps: hi, remember you told me yesterday to build android? I gave up. I simply don't understand how android is build, maybe I'm stupid but somehow I stopped caring a few hours ago.05:05
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drachensunhello,05:19
drachensunI've got a nemo image I built with the SDK I'm trying to debug05:20
drachensunis the kernel console on ttyS0 enabled by default?  If not how should I enable it?05:20
drachensunI'm not seeing anything and I dont know if the system is just freezing or if the console just isn't on and my display isn't working (likely)05:21
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Stskeepsdrachensun: console=tty0 in command line?05:22
Stskeeps(bit slow at typing, at home and son sleeping on my chest)05:22
drachensunno worries05:23
drachensunthat should be in there already, this is the same initrd I use on all my images for this hardware05:23
Stskeepsdid you run the mer kernel config checker on your kernel conf?05:24
drachensunno, I have not, hadn't heard of it05:25
drachensunhttps://github.com/lbt/mer-kernel-check/blob/master/mer_verify_kernel_config  ?05:25
Stskeepshttps://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptation_Guide#Kernel05:25
Stskeepsyes05:25
Stskeepsvery useful tool05:25
drachensunok, I'm getting that now05:26
drachensunI did just play around with the security settings and all trying to get Tizen working05:26
Stskeepshope you had better result than the guys who did a quad core tablet and had a honest to god slideshow of a ui..05:27
drachensunI couldn't get it out of the recovery console05:28
drachensunbest I can tell, things have to be mounted from an SD card05:28
drachensunand remove the things in etc referencing the mmc had not effect, so I assume it is built in to systemd somehow05:29
Stskeeps:nod:05:29
drachensunmaybe its something easy but I shelved it for the moment05:29
drachensunlike you say, I didn't see any path toward getting hardware acceleration on my chip05:29
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drachensunhmmm lots of config changes05:38
drachensunis there come option to modify the config that will allow me to search by name rather than dig through menus?05:38
drachensunI figure if I just edit the .config file I might be messing up dependencies05:39
drachensunor will the next make just ask me the questions to fix those?05:39
Stskeepsjust edit .config, that's what i do, and let it sort out rest in make05:41
Stskeepsmake oldconfig and check .config again prolly goof05:41
Stskeepsd05:42
drachensunok good05:42
drachensunI setup with this repo --name=nemo-platform --baseurl=http://releases.nemomobile.org/releases/0.20130620.0.1/repos/platform/armv7hl/05:55
drachensunthat a good target to build?05:56
Stskeepsyes, though if all fails you can drop down to do a pure mer core05:56
Stskeepseasier to debug05:56
drachensunand it would still let me test the libhybris I built05:57
drachensunbut I figure it something fundamental that would stop either05:57
drachensunI should be see something on the console after it runs init05:58
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Stskeepssystemd.log_level=debug systemd.log_target=console   is always useful, too05:58
Stskeepsin kernel cmdline05:58
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drachensunyeah systemd.log_target=console sounds like exactly what I need06:03
drachensunwell wait06:10
drachensunI've got console=ttyS0 in command06:10
drachensunline06:10
drachensunthats what I normally use, should it be tty0 now?06:11
Stskeepsif you want it to show on screen..06:13
drachensunI want it on the serial debug line06:13
drachensunthe screen wont work without the display driver and I can tell thats not tripping right now because the bootloader graphic isn't going away06:14
Stskeepsah06:14
Stskeepsi thought you didnt have serial06:14
Stskeepsserial is fine then06:14
drachensunyeah, I changed the kernel command line with those additional systemd options and still nothing06:15
Stskeepsok -- tell me about your initrd?06:15
drachensunits very basic, it just loads up an nand driver06:15
drachensunruns a file check on the partition06:16
drachensunthen calls init on the mounted partition and switches root06:16
drachensunso in the past I have had to take /sbin/init and copy it to the root directory06:16
drachensunwhich I did in this case to, but I also tried making a link in the root to systemd06:17
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drachensunI wonder if there is a permissions problem, I notice the rootfs has all the files owned by my build account06:20
Stskeepsthat doesn't sound healthy06:20
drachensunwell in the SDK guide they said to do that, seemed odd to me though06:21
drachensunwas I supposed to change that back somehow when copying it out?06:21
Stskeepsmoment06:21
drachensunhope I didn't read it wrong...06:22
drachensunNext we need to make sure the rootfs is all owned by the user. SB2 uses fakeroot when needed and won't work if the target has root-owned files.06:23
drachensunsudo chown -R $USER /parentroot/srv/mer/targets/mer-target-armv7hl/*06:23
Stskeepsyeah, that's only for making it a SB2 target :)06:27
drachensunhmmm06:32
drachensunok, but its after the files are in there06:33
Stskeepsfor images that go on devices you should just use the output of mic practically06:33
Stskeepsie, rsync with permissions, owners and all06:33
drachensunok I gotcha06:33
drachensunso I need one to build with sb2 and one to actually load, is that the idea?06:34
Stskeepsyes06:34
drachensunok06:34
Stskeepstwo different needs; one for sb2 doesn't need a hw adaptation as an example06:34
drachensunyeah that makes sense06:36
drachensunso it you build with sb2 is there an easy way to run the make install onto the other rootfs?06:36
drachensunugh, something from tizen is left over in the initrd06:41
drachensunI bet thats really the problem06:41
drachensunthough I will have to address the owner issue obviously06:41
Stskeepsdrachensun: well, packaging or just cp'ing over foo after make DESTDIR=foo and06:41
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drachensunyeah, I guess packaging is the right way to do06:55
drachensunI'm pretty stoked this has come along so quickly, I wasted a bunch of time messing around with OBS06:56
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Merbotphaeron lbt sage stskeeps SR#402 waiting for review at https://build.merproject.org//request/show/40207:42
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faenilupdated Nemo last night (after about 2 weeks), and DNS stopped working...is that a known issue?08:54
faenillpotter, ^08:57
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lpotterhmmm.. not that I know of09:17
lpotterbut I haven't updated lately09:18
faenillpotter, anything I can do to fix it?09:20
lpotterwifi?09:20
faenillpotter, it's in VM09:21
faenilNemo wayland vm09:21
lpottermight try disconnecting and then reconnceting the network adaptor from the vbox settings09:25
faenillpotter, ok, I tried rebooting already fwiw09:25
faenilnothing09:27
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Morpog_faenil, what happens when you change from NAT to Bridge in VBOXsettings?09:33
faenilMorpog_, can't connect via ssh09:34
faenilMorpog_, zypper ref says "unrecognized error"09:35
faenilMorpog_, lpotter tried changing a bit between modes on Vbox, then came back to NAT, and it works now...09:37
Morpog_can you ping stuff?09:37
Morpog_ah lol09:37
faenilXD09:37
lpotterhmmmm...09:39
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faenilQtQuick2 versions of voicecall-ui-reference and qmlnotes now up for grabs in Nemomobile devel repos!10:38
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Morpog_notes is kinda broken on sailfish emu10:44
faenilMorpog_, you're talking about bottom toolbar?10:45
Morpog_yep10:45
faenilthemedaemon issues10:45
faenilsledgeSim's PR fixes that, but it's not reviewed yet10:45
Morpog_http://abload.de/img/unbenannt1nut2.jpg not that bad10:46
faeniloh well it's worse on Nemo wayland :)10:46
Morpog_in voicecall ui reference10:46
faenilI don't even see the gray toolbar background :)10:46
Morpog_0 doesnt work10:47
faenilI didn't touch anything about the functionality ;)10:47
faenilso we first have to wait for themedaemon bugs to be fixed10:47
Morpog_oh ok and ther is no way to delete10:47
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Morpog_ah the 0 works, but u have to click below the 010:48
faenilyes it's layout issues, all caused by the theme issues, afaik10:48
faenilabout the delete, it could be the "left arrow" icon missing ;)10:48
Morpog_where is it located normally?10:49
faenilbasically, I just ported the thing. Whatever doesn't work now, is most likely because of the theme issues, so not worth looking at it/trying to fix it10:49
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faenilwhen sledgeSim's PRs will be reviewed and merged, everything should be visually ok ;)10:50
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faenilMorpog_, clear' :D10:51
faenil?10:51
Morpog_?10:52
faenilis that clear? :D10:53
Morpog_sure :)10:53
faenilwe're screwed until themeissues are fixed :D10:53
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Morpog_so we just have to poke Jolla guys to hurry up :D10:53
faenilMorpog_, yeah, but there's not much to poke, they're relaxing, vacation times :P10:55
Stskeepsnot all of us10:55
Morpog_well I do :)10:55
faenilStskeeps, I never count you, you're Jolla's cyborg10:56
Morpog_lol10:56
gry:)10:56
faenilcybette, you're still cutest Jolla's cyborg, don't worry :)10:56
faenilwow quite some stuff failed to build in obs10:57
faenilNEMOMOBILE'S GOD, IF YOU EXIST, WE NEED THOSE 3 PRs TO BE REVIEWED ASAP, THANK YOU! :D10:58
faenilhttps://github.com/nemomobile/qt-components/pull/1010:58
faenilhttps://github.com/nemomobile/meegotouch-theme-darko/pull/110:58
faenilhttps://github.com/nemomobile/nemo-theme-default/pull/310:58
faenilThank you, God :D10:58
gryReviewed and pushed you mean (I can look and say things like they're ok all night, but that'll not do a thing :p)11:01
faenilgry, well, I can merge and tag, if somebody says "OK LGTM" :D11:03
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fk_lxfaenil: long weekend and the rest of developers sunk in Sailfish development11:25
fk_lxfaenil: my guess :-)11:25
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faenilfk_lx, nah it's just that some people are on holiday :)12:07
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GryllidaJust a note that url grabber in fingerterm does an awesome job. Kind of miss mosh (the mobile shell)12:36
locusfmosh is cool12:36
faenilGryllida, using QtQuick2 fingerterm?12:36
GryllidaNot seeing it in the repos; might be easy to steal from another distro, if not too many dependencies12:38
faenilwell, if you updated it, it's QtQuick212:38
faeniland a new version is coming, probably this afternoon...I added orientation lock support12:38
GryllidaOne moment, last line was about mosh12:38
faeniland, well, changed some stuff in qml12:38
faeniloh ok ;)12:38
GryllidaFingerterm 1.0.6, I will update today-ish, I think12:45
faenil1.1.0 is QtQuick212:46
Gryllidaok12:46
faeniland soon new version is coming with orientation support12:47
GryllidaStrange, zypper ref && zypper dup insist that everything is up-to-date12:49
faenilmaybe because you're not on "devel" repos ;)12:50
faenil(think about it before switching, devel is a can of worms at the moment, due to Wayland transition)12:50
GryllidaWill check in a bit. Thanks for the note about new version, I will try to switch to devel repos12:52
faenilremember, devel -> some things could stop working12:53
faenilsome ore all? :D12:53
faenilor12:53
faenil*12:53
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faenilso well, I'd say we're quite stuck at the moment? qwazix Morpog_ Hurrian sledgeSim13:06
Morpog_what are the next steps?13:07
Morpog_component creation?13:07
faenilI think so, but we don't know which components, and we don't have the graphics13:07
Morpog_or are these existent and "just" need to be themed?13:07
faenilwell, there are some existent (QtQuickControls)13:07
faenilbut we most likely need more13:07
Morpog_but those need to be themed?13:08
faenilyes?13:08
Morpog_Don't have any knowledge with components13:09
faenilwell, I mean, if we want Glacier look, we have to theme components :D13:09
Morpog_I think I heard that hurrian started to slice his glacier UI already in components. But I could be wrong.13:09
Morpog_We could start with existing components and theme them. Then have a look how it feels on a basic app.13:13
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qwazixHurrian indeed has sliced the graphics, I remember he tweeted about it13:16
qwazixbut i don't remember the repo url13:16
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faenilsliced graphics isn't the only issue...:D theming components is quite a lot of work13:23
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Morpog_are there documents?13:25
Morpog_i only find qtquick1 stuff13:25
faenildon't know :/13:26
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Morpog_faenil, do we have qtquick 2 components in nemo even?13:32
faenilMorpog_, what do you think the whole porting thing is about? D13:33
faenil:D13:33
faenilporting to Qt5 and QtQuick2 version of QtComponents13:33
Morpog_aren't those ported qtquick 1 components?13:33
faenilyes13:33
Morpog_or do they look same?13:33
faenilthey're meego components ported to qtquick213:34
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Morpog_well, are there default qtquick2 components?13:34
faenilyes, QtQuickControls13:34
Morpog_and those look different?13:34
faenilthe ones we have to theme13:34
faenilyes13:34
Morpog_ok :)13:34
Morpog_just for understanding13:34
faenilsure ;)13:35
faenilwe're not upstream for those13:35
faenilbut sledgeSim created the repo yesterday13:35
Morpog_so it would be nice to have an example app that uses those components, or?13:35
faenilhttps://github.com/nemomobile/qtquickcontrols13:35
Morpog_like the comonents app in sailfish emulator13:35
faenilthere is a gallery for those components too13:36
faenilsledgeSim was building that on OBS one-two days ago13:36
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Morpog_so we could install these?13:36
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faenilcould be available already13:36
faenillet me see13:36
faenilMorpog_, it's on his personal obs repo13:38
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faenilhttps://build.merproject.org/project/show?project=home%3Asledge%3Abranches%3Anemo%3Adevel13:40
Morpog_I'm confused about it after checkinbg files on github....13:41
faenilwhy confused?13:42
Morpog_so few images13:42
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Morpog_so few stuff in general13:42
Morpog_this can't be all13:42
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faenilthis is the official repo13:43
faenilhttps://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qtquickcontrols/trees/stable13:43
Morpog_sledgeSim, ?13:44
faenilofficial repo has more files Morpog_ ?13:45
Morpog_no, but that is only for desktop apps I think13:45
faenilwell, qtquickcontrols for mobile will come with Qt5.213:45
faenilend of year13:45
Morpog_aaaaah13:45
Morpog_so there are pretty useless for us?13:46
faenil(if they're on schedule)13:46
faenilwhy? remember desktop doesn't exclude touch interface :)13:46
faenilbut yeah of course mobile-specific controls are missing13:47
Morpog_but wouldn't it be better to base on touch controlls to minimize porting  efforts from android and ios qt5?13:47
faenilMorpog_, which touch controls?13:48
Morpog_yep13:48
faenilwhich13:48
Morpog_from 5.213:48
Morpog_with that version android and ios are fully supported on qt13:48
faenilMorpog_, alright, let's all wait 5 months more13:49
Morpog_so apps will be written using those controlls (?)13:49
Morpog_are there development versions of those controlls?13:49
faenilwho knows13:50
Morpog_I'm no expert at this faenil13:50
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faenilme neither, I'm asking in #qt-quick13:51
Morpog_what did jolla guys recommened when porting was discussed?13:51
faenilporting apps to meego components qtquick2, and then think about components13:52
Morpog_ok, we are thinking now :)13:52
faenileh :P13:52
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Morpog_maybe they thought it would take you guys alot more time to port apps13:52
faenilit could be that the work on mobile controls hasn't even started, at Digia :D13:53
Morpog_there is a tizen branch13:53
faenilyes13:54
Morpog_back in a few minutes13:54
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Morpog_back14:03
faenilwb14:05
faenilhaving a nice discussion in #qt-quick, I'll past the discussion here in a bit14:05
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Morpog_hmm, don't see any discussion there :)14:09
faenilwaiting for reply atm :P14:09
Morpog_what did you ask?14:10
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faenilabout qtquickcontrols status and future development14:13
faenilin the meanwhile, I have qtquickcontrols gallery running on Nemo VM, using sledgeSim's repo :D14:13
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Morpog_so he says styling can start now, but from where?14:30
SuperpelicanMorpog_:Maybe the basic components?14:31
Superpelicanlike Button, TextField etc.14:31
SuperpelicanMorpog_:Things that can't change (too much) anymore14:32
Morpog_yeah, but where are the files/source? :)14:32
SuperpelicanMorpog_:Eh14:32
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Superpelicanwell the QtQuick Controls source repo?14:33
faenilMorpog_, there are styles qml files14:33
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faenilwhat I wonder is if those are enough to do the job14:33
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SuperpelicanMorpog_:Silica components could be a nice example ;)14:34
faenilSilica is not themed qtquickcontrols14:34
Superpelicanoh14:34
Superpelicanyeah14:34
SuperpelicanI should've known14:34
Superpelican:(14:35
faenilat least, afaik :D14:35
Morpog_looks like they throw away qt components? strange14:37
faenilMorpog_, that was known14:38
faenilqtcomponents is considered a piece of s*** by many14:38
Morpog_yeah, but what a waste14:39
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alteregoIt would be nice to have some kind of a uniform API for things, but people rarely do things exactly the same.14:40
alteregoAnd there are quite a few QML based toolkits by now.14:41
alteregoMaybe even simple aliasing in some cases would allow easier portability of code.14:42
Morpog_well it sounded like qtquick 2 would change that14:42
alteregoMorpog_: qt quick controls are still new, probably not complete for most cases. And I was under the impression they were more for desktop UIs14:42
Morpog_atm yes14:43
faenilalterego, well they're born for desktop, but that's what iOS and Android will have14:43
alteregoMaybe mimicing silica API and providing qt components and qt quick controls would be an idea.14:43
faenilso they'll get more "mobile" in the coming months14:43
alteregoThough that's three times the work for maintaining any consistant theming.14:44
faenilyeah ...14:44
faenilnot sure we should mimic silica anyway14:44
faenilthat's Jolla's private stuff14:44
alteregoI would still think, considering the state of the community, that mimicing silica API would be a good idea.14:44
alteregofaenil: I mean only API, not look & feel.14:44
faenilalterego, yes I know, but how much effort does that require?14:45
faenilyou think just renaming qtquickcontrols is enough? :/14:45
Morpog_I don't think that would work well together with glacierUI14:45
alteregofaenil: I'm not sure it would be a massive undertaking. Wrapping qt quick controls, and adding bits when they're missing.14:45
alteregoMorpog_: I fully expect that your UI designs will have things that qtqc and silica don't have. But that's fine :)14:46
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faenilit depends on how similar the two components sets are..14:46
alteregoExtending API is good anyway. As long as you can maintain some kind of compatibility with other toolkit/s.14:47
alteregoAnd doing it that way I guess is less than double the work anyway.14:47
faenilalterego, I'd say first of all we have to style qtquickcontrols14:47
faenilthe silica compatibility layer has to come after14:48
alteregofaenil: well, there's no reason why these tasks can't be run in parallel ;)14:48
faenilalterego, yeah well I'm used to thinking there's never more than one people working on nemo :P14:48
alteregoIf there was one thing we learned from meego ux and qt components, getting rid of fragmentation as early as possible is probably a good idea ;)14:48
faenil:)14:49
alteregoMaybe someone should make a qt quick UI API specification.14:49
faenilyeah :/14:50
alteregoWho's gonna argue over how a button works, really... ;)14:50
Morpog_So I think faenil should do the plan, write on mailinglist and wiki the state and todos :)14:50
faenilI hoped Sailfish wouldn't not add just one more components set to the list...14:50
faenilMorpog_, lol14:50
Morpog_:)14:51
faenilthough they didn't have much choice14:51
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alteregoAt the time, qt quick controls wasn't really realised, qt14:51
alteregocomponents was pretty lame.14:51
alteregoSo there wasn't really anything else to use.14:51
faenilyes, exactly14:51
faenilthey didn't really have a choice14:52
alteregoAnd also, the shader effects and such that are being used are pretty specific to the sailfish user experience.14:52
Stskeepsalso, the UI had errm.. pretty interesting requirements14:52
alteregoQt5 and Qt Quick 2 would make managing that stuff easier. But meh.14:52
Stskeepsalterego: did you notice sailfish is now qt5+wayland? :P14:52
alteregoStskeeps: yes, of course :)14:53
Stskeepsgood, i was getting worried14:53
Stskeeps:P14:53
faenillol14:53
Morpog_:D14:53
alteregoStskeeps: but the UI is not FOSS, which some people may find unfortunate.14:53
alteregoAs they always do :)14:53
faenil"may"14:53
alteregofaenil: well, I don't particularly care about it ;)14:53
faenilalterego, me neither, but just because there's hackers behind it14:54
alteregoThat is, I understand why it's there, and I understand why it will most likely always be this way.14:54
faenilyeah14:54
alteregoUX and interface paradigms are evolving and everyone wants to get ahead :)14:54
alteregoBut now you've got me interested in making a new UI toolkit with the ability to have things like plugin shaders for theming.14:55
alteregoWhich would be pretty epic on scene graph :)14:55
faenilalterego, guess what, we're just looking for someone to do that! \o/14:55
alteregolol14:56
Morpog_:)14:56
alteregoIt might have something to do with the fact I've been implementing a DFFT in gles214:56
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faenilalterego, DFFT <314:57
faenilalterego, what aboud SVD?14:57
faenilthose are like orgasms from math14:57
alteregoHeh14:57
alteregoI was also toying with the idea of making a HTML5 wayland compositor.14:58
faenilow :)14:58
alteregoWas just interested what kind of performance I could get out of it and webgl.14:58
Morpog_faenil, theming and extending qt-components-qt5 is not an option?14:59
faenilalterego, isn't there any idea which could benefit Nemo? :D14:59
alteregoWell, I have started outlining some modifications to voicecall I want to make ;)14:59
faenilalterego, good :)14:59
faenilMorpog_, who will use qtcomponents in the future?14:59
alteregoI might be interested in helping with nemo UI, given a bit more discussion and detailed planning.15:00
Morpog_all legacy apps from harmattan and nemo :)15:00
Morpog_ok bad idea15:00
faenil:)15:00
faenilalterego, then come back in a few months, lol :)15:01
alteregoIt's best just to have it installed for use, and it'll make people want to update their code ;)15:01
alteregoMaybe making qt-components just look aweful will be more of a pursuasion :)15:01
faenilahah :D15:01
faenilalterego, so, let's think some more about the compatibility layer with silica15:01
faenildo you expect something like "import QtQuick.Controls.Nemo" vs "import QtQuick.Controls.Nemo.SilicaCompat"15:02
alteregoI'm thinking maybe "import glacier" but have the glacier plugin also provide "Sailfish.Silica 1.0"15:04
alteregoWe use the API from silica and depending on ui requirements try to use Qt Controls where possible or develop own toolkit.15:04
* faenil eyes PulleyMenu15:05
alterego"PulleyMenu" will just be an alias for "ApplicationMenu" or something.15:05
faenildo we need to alias it?15:06
alteregoMost of the work will be making a nice modular theming engine (with shader support).15:06
alteregofaenil: not really, you can declare the type in Qt twice with both names :P15:07
alteregoOr just subclass.15:07
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Stskeepsideas how to make qtquickcontrols->silica easier and reverse welcome15:11
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faenilsorry was afk15:18
faenilalterego, to do that you need 1:1 correspondence though15:19
alteregofaenil: sure, well. We can still extend the API.15:20
faeniloh well15:20
faenilsure15:20
alteregoWe're probably more likely to want to run silica apps, rather than silica run ours.15:20
alteregoBut at least it wouldn't be difficult to go the other way either.15:21
faenildefinitely15:21
faenilI think we need: 1) qtquickcontrols, because it's what iOS and Android Qt developers will use15:21
faenil2) silica compatibility layer, which probably needs controls with extended API15:22
Superpelicanfaenil:So basically you're assuming that Android and iOS developers also want to develop for Nemo?15:22
faeniland it's not like we can change upstream qtquickcontrols to use same API as silica XD15:22
faenilSuperpelican, nope, I'm assuming that if we want we will be able to take their apps and package them for Nemo ;)15:22
faenilthus giving Nemo user high-quality (hopefully?) apps15:23
faenilor well, apps :D15:23
Superpelicanfaenil:Well TBH15:24
SuperpelicanI'm not sure if many devs will use QtQuick for Android/iOs15:24
faenilThat remains to be seen15:24
faenilbut it won't be very few15:24
Superpelicanfaenil:Most devs developing for Android/iOS are either fanboys/users or devs that want to make money/do it as their day job15:24
SuperpelicanIMO15:25
Superpelican /my view15:25
Superpelicanfaenil:So15:25
faenilwe don't need 90% of iOS apps, we just have to be compatible with as many toolkits as possible15:25
faenilso that we don't have to force people to develop specifically for Nemo15:25
SuperpelicanI think that if they would want to port their apps to a Mer-based OS15:25
Superpelicanthey would port it to Sailfish15:25
Superpelican(as that's corporate backed etc., gets marketing so they'll probably make more money on that)15:26
faenilof course, none will just "port" software to Nemo15:26
Superpelicanand the other half are fanboys/users who aren't going to switch to Mer/Nemo/Sailfish15:26
faenilthat's why we need compatibility layers with other toolkits15:26
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Superpelicanand therefore won't develop apps for them15:26
faenilSuperpelican, don't agree15:26
Superpelicanthat's ok ;)15:26
faenil:)15:27
faenilSuperpelican, remember that Qt is giving official support for iOS and Android15:27
Superpelicanfaenil:I do agree though that the Nemo community should try to fight fragmentation as much as possible15:27
SuperpelicanI'm not completely sure though about *how*15:27
faenilthere will be a lot of people who won't give a damn about Mer and it's OSes15:27
Superpelicanfaenil:that's what I mean15:27
faeniland will just choose QtQuickControls as one of the many toolkits available for Android/iOS15:27
SuperpelicanI mean15:27
Superpelicanit might sound a bit harsh15:28
Superpelicanbut most companies and people won't give a <fill_in_something> about Nemo15:28
SuperpelicanTBH I think Nemo is really nice15:28
faenilexactly15:28
Superpelicanand it's a good project15:29
SuperpelicanI honestly think it should exist15:29
faeniland you don't know if they will care about Sailfish, just because it uses Qt15:29
Superpelicanbut it will probably always remain a niche OS15:29
Superpelicanfor geeks/hackers15:29
Superpelicanwho want a 100% hackable/FOSS mobile OS15:29
Morpog_Superpelican, even if they don't, aslong it's open source we can repackage it by ourselfes15:29
faenilthat's for sure15:29
faenilnobody ever said Nemo is targeting consumer market :D15:29
faeniland that is my point15:29
SuperpelicanI don't think that quite fits with the market of Android/iOS15:29
Superpelicanfaenil:I think15:30
faenilsince none will care about developing specifically for Nemo, we need to be able to repackage apps and have them working directly on nemo15:30
Superpelicanfaenil:well15:30
faenilas much as possible15:30
Superpelicanthe Nemo community will15:30
Superpelicanof course15:30
Superpelicanand15:30
faeniloh come on :)15:30
faenilwant to compare Qt apps that will hit iOS or Android stores, with those coming from us only?15:31
Superpelicanfaenil:IMO the biggest app stream for Nemo will be the stream of apps that will be ported from Sailfish OS15:31
faenil(not talking about quality here of course)15:31
Superpelicanfaenil:the Sailfish fans/earlier adopters/hackers/geeks/Linux fans/etc15:32
faenilSuperpelican, IMO the biggest app stream will be the one that uses the most used UI toolkit15:32
Superpelicanwill probably port their Sailfish apps to Nemo15:32
faenilwhich you can't know if it will be Silica or QtQuickControls15:32
faenilprobably port to Nemo? don't think so, not at all, I think 5% will15:32
faenilmost people don't even know what Nemo is15:32
Superpelicanfaenil:Am I correct to assume that most of the Qt4/X11 Nemo apps were ported from Harmattan/Fremantle?15:33
faenildo you think they'll take care of spending time on publishing it on Nemo?15:33
Superpelicaneh15:33
Superpelicanwell15:33
SuperpelicanI'm planning on porting my Sailfish app to Nemo :D15:33
Superpelicanand I think that many of the people who are currently supporting Jolla15:33
faenilSuperpelican, yes, because it used the most commonly used Qt UI toolkit, qtcomponents15:33
faenilthat is exactly my point15:33
Superpelicanfaenil:But15:34
faenilSuperpelican, sorry, but I think very, very, very few people will repackage their apps for Nemo15:34
Superpelicanfaenil:Most of the Fremantle/Harmattan device owners were open source/Linux fans/geeks etc15:35
Superpelicanthe same people who would like Nemo15:35
Superpelicanand15:35
Superpelicanthose people probably wouldn't mind porting their apps to Nemo15:36
faenilSuperpelican, most of harmattan users don't even know Nemo exist! :P15:36
faenilharmattan developers*15:36
SuperpelicanI doubt that15:36
faenilI am pretty sure about that instead :)15:36
Superpelican(aside from the major companies of course)15:36
faenilonly those interested about Jolla do15:36
faenil(small part of them as well)15:36
Superpelicanfaenil:But15:36
Superpelicanthe question is15:36
Superpelicanwill Nemo *need* so much apps?15:36
faenilwell, it will need great apps if it will ever aim at becoming a daily-usable system15:37
Superpelicanfaenil:The N900/N9/N950 didn't have much apps either15:37
Superpelicanbut (almost) all were of good quality15:37
Superpelican(at least that's what I can tell as N900 owner)15:38
faenilagree, but we're not Nokia15:38
faenilwe don't have a store15:38
faeniland we don't have people who want to support the platform15:38
faenilcome on, look at where Nemo stands after 2 years15:38
faenilwe've come a long way15:38
faenilbut still no clients for anything15:38
Superpelicanfaenil:May I ask what you're expecting of Nemo to become in the coming years?15:39
faenilI expect it to become an OS you can use on daily basis with some precautions15:39
faenili.e. not for common user15:39
SuperpelicanDo you want/think/hope it will picked up by some manufacturer?15:39
Superpelicanjust like Jolla picked up Mer?15:39
faenilNomovok has already chosen Nemo15:39
SuperpelicanWhat does Nomovok do?15:40
faenilso, yeah it could happen15:40
faenilopensource stuff15:40
SuperpelicanDo they develop mobile devices?15:40
faenilNone would ever use Nemo for selling devices, as I said it will never suit the common user15:40
faenilavg user15:40
faenilbut it could get to a usable state for geeks, imho15:41
faenilif people contribute15:41
Superpelicanyes15:41
faeniland expecting that the good apps Nemo will use will come from Nemo community is just too good to be true15:41
Superpelicanbut do you think that geeks will need all the bad quality apps that Android/iOS have?15:41
Superpelican(not intending to say that they have *only* bad quality apps though)15:41
Superpelicanfaenil:Well TBH I think that that's what will happen15:42
qwazixSuperpelican, no, but being able to run the odd app that's written in Qt for those platforms is good15:42
Stskeepsfaenil: possibly nemo ui but mw..15:43
faenilSuperpelican, I'd love to believe that...but I've been here quite some time, and that never happened15:43
Stskeeps:P15:43
Superpelicanqwazix, faenil:So actually you're saying that Nemo didn't have enough quality apps in the past15:43
qwazixAnd there will be people who do that as now Qt supports BB, WP, Android, iOS, Sailfish and Tizen15:43
faenilStskeeps, yeah well Jolla is taking care of MW, that's why it's good15:43
qwazixie everything15:43
Stskeepsfaenil: was already good before15:43
Superpelicanbecause there was no Qt for Android/iOS etc then15:43
qwazixSuperpelican, irrelevant15:44
Superpelicanqwazix:Why is that irrelevant?15:44
qwazixIf I made a new distro today I would want it to run both Gtk and Qt apps because some good apps are gtk and some qt15:44
faenilStskeeps, I seem to remember most of the MW was developed by companies, not random community users15:44
faenil(members outside of Jolla :P )15:44
qwazixthe same goes for mobile, we want to support both qqc and qtc15:45
Superpelicanqwazix:eh15:45
Superpelicanqwazix:So you're saying you still want to support QtWidgets?15:45
faenilqwazix, and Silica as well xD15:45
qwazixSuperpelican, why not? If they still work okay on Qt5/wayland of course15:46
faenilStskeeps, or am I misremembering?15:46
Superpelicanfaenil, qwazix:However I do agree that Nemo Mobile components should be compatible with either Silica or QtQuick Controls15:46
Superpelicanqwazix:Well aren't they consired as legacy for mobile usage?15:47
qwazixSuperpelican, indeed, so we wouldn't put much effort to them15:47
Superpelicanfaenil:But what's the current plan for the Nemo/Glacier components?15:48
faenilSuperpelican, we're trying to write down one15:48
qwazixSuperpelican, theme qtcontrols and create whatever is missing15:48
qwazixbut, yeah faenil is right, this is the general gist15:49
Superpelicanfaenil, qwazix:Hmm sounds like a good idea15:49
qwazixI have to run. Cya later15:49
faenilqwazix, alterego noted that we should also have silica API compatibility15:49
faenilqwazix, cya15:49
Superpelicanfaenil:And how would that be implemented?15:49
faenilSuperpelican, compatibility layer?15:49
Superpelicanfaenil:Wouldn't that add lots of complexity?15:50
faenilthat's what we're discussing, how to do that15:50
faenilalterego, mind adding your ideas?15:50
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qwazixI think we should just include all the different components in and slowly slowly create similar theme16:04
qwazixjust like ubuntu does on the desktop16:04
qwazixit's not perfect but it's easy and doesn't have much complexity16:05
faenilqwazix, what do you mean?16:07
Morpog_add everything, theme everything16:07
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faenilMorpog_, you can't add everything16:09
qwazixfaenil, first step, have all sets in the repos with default looks, just like maemo5 has harmattan's com.nokia.meego, Apps will look out-of-place but they'll run16:09
faenilqwazix, and that's done already16:10
qwazixharmattan apps will look like harmattan, silica will look like silica, qqc will look like qqc etc,16:10
faenilqwazix, you can't have silica16:10
qwazixfaenil, why?16:10
faenilqwazix, do you have silica arm .so?16:10
faenilor sources?16:10
Morpog_it's BSD, isn't it?16:11
qwazixnot yet but they promised it will be opensource16:11
qwazixI'm talking about long term plan16:12
qwazixanyway step 2 is to theme the different component sets to look as close as possible to glacier16:12
qwazixand step 3 is to fork them and make them behave more like glacier UI16:13
faenilbehave like glacier ?16:13
qwazixExample: while in step 2, a harmattan app will still have the bottom toolbar but it will be black with a white triangle for back button.16:14
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qwazixafter step 3, we can write a compatibility layer that shows the back arrow on the top left like the other glacier apps16:15
Morpog_I think faenil aimed to skip step 216:16
qwazixThat would be the Right choice, if we had the manpower16:16
qwazixbut as I see it having a step 3 that works 99% of the cases is quite hard16:17
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faenilqwazix, wait a moment, you want to convert qtcomponents to glacier look as well?16:17
qwazixespecially given the flexibility of qml (example: some harmattan apps have the toolbar *in* the page, some outside, some have the context menu appear above the toolbar, some over it. All these cases should be taken care of)16:18
qwazixfaenil, I'm not sure yet if it's a good idea to do that specifically for qt components as they are being phased out, I just used them as an example16:19
faenilqwazix, yeah I was thinking of leaving those out of the equation16:20
faenilwe don't have enough man power..16:20
faenilthey will run with default look16:20
qwazix:nod:16:21
faenilso, back to black16:22
faenil:)16:22
faenilwe have QtQuickControls and this silica compatibility layer16:22
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faenilqwazix, how would you implement that?16:33
faenilthe compatibility layer16:33
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qwazixfaenil, I would wait for silica source16:35
qwazixand chop it up16:35
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Venemo_N9heg16:36
Venemo_N9heh16:36
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Morpog_so faenil, are you preparing those controls somewhere which we can style?17:02
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faenilso, because of17:08
faenil<faenil> Stskeeps, sorry for asking again, but since we're talking about it in Nemo17:08
faenil<faenil> will Silica code be released?17:08
faenil<faenil> if so, when?17:08
faenil<faenil> if not, say "no" :P17:08
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faenil<Stskeeps> dunno17:08
faenilI'd say ( qwazix agrees) that we'll postpone the Silica question to "after-Sailfish-launch"17:08
faenilso, current plan is to theme QtQuickControls17:09
qwazixyep, we should focus on styling qqc and adding whatever more we need over it17:09
faenilalso, let me paste the discussion held in #qt-quick, so that it's logged17:10
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faenil<faenil> jpnurmi, ping17:22
faenil* plemarquand (~plemarqua@c73-215.rim.net) has joined #qt-quick17:22
faenil<jpnurmi> faenil: pong17:22
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faenil<faenil> jpnurmi, we (Nemomobile contributors) would like to base the new Nemo UI on QtQuickControls17:22
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faenil<faenil> is there a dev version of mobile controls?17:22
faenil<faenil> those that will be in iOS and Android in 5.217:22
faenil<stack3457> hi I am getting i18n is not defined in my plasma 2 plasmoid (qml 2) ..please suggest something17:22
faenil<faenil> jbache, ^ (QtQuickControls)17:22
faenil<stack3457> @jpnurmi we can use il8n in qml 2.0 right?17:22
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faenil<stack3457> ^i18n17:22
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faenil<jbache> faenil: We dont have a theme for that yet so there are no mobile controls to test. Your best option is to do it like in the "touch" example we provide. More styling will be available in 5.2 and we are planning to make the controls work on platforms that dont have top level windows as well.17:22
faenil<faenil> jbache, mm wait, so it's all about style?17:22
faenil<faenil> I thought there would have been new controls17:22
faenil<jpnurmi> stack3457: sure17:22
faenil<maxlem> Hi, is there something special to activate to receive mouse event on a QQuickItem-derived object^17:22
faenil<faenil> if it's all about style then it's not a problem, as we need our own style in Nemo in any case...17:22
faenil<jpnurmi> stack3457: http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.1/qtdoc/qtquick-internationalization.html17:22
faenil<jbache> faenil: yes, we are planning to add some such as Switch and BusyIndicator. But we don't plan a completely new control set17:22
faenil<faenil> not completely new, I though mobile-specific controls would be added17:22
faenil<maxlem> I've overriden QQuickItem::mousePressEvent() and it is not triggered17:22
faenil<hanser> maxlem you should set setAcceptedMouseButtons().17:22
faenil<jbache> faenil: for the most part the API works on both. Switch, Button etc. I suspect we need a ListDelegate API for mobile though, where you get typical drill downs etc.17:22
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faenil<jbache> faenil: do you have any mocups UI designs etc?17:23
faenil<faenil> jbache, I didn't get the lat one, is Switch available or is it not? :)17:23
faenil<faenil> jbache, yea wait17:23
Stskeepspastiebin..?17:23
Stskeeps:P17:23
faenil<jbache> faenil: not yet :)17:23
faenil<jbache> faenil: we will have to add that17:23
faenil<jbache> faenil: the API is essentially the same as checkbox though so it is easy, It just needs some special styling capabilities17:23
faenil<faenil> jbache, http://play.qwazix.com/grog/?p=34417:23
faenil<maxlem> hanser: I did17:23
faenil<faenil> jbache, also http://hurrian.github.io/glacier/components.html17:23
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faenil<maxlem> hanser: I dont receive hoverEvents either17:23
faenil<hanser> maxlem you must also setAcceptHoverEvents(true)17:23
faenil<maxlem> hanser: I did too17:23
faenil<maxlem> I receive nothing17:23
faenil<faenil> jbache, so do you think we can go on with the styling work?17:23
faenil<faenil> also, is there any list of things which are going to be added/modified in QtQuickControls (like Switch) so that we know what is most needed?17:23
faenil<hanser> maxlem then be sure your item is enabled: true, visible: true, opacity > 0 and then check if it overlayed by another item17:23
faenil* Morpog_ (~Morpog@stgt-5d8400ae.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #qt-quick17:23
faenil<hanser> then show your code if it doesn't catch any mouse event17:23
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faenil<maxlem> hanser: http://pastebin.com/nUjWDtni17:23
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faenil<jbache> faenil: looks good17:23
faenil<koopajah> faenil> this is the UI you aim to achieve in QML ?17:23
faenil<jbache> faenil: styling you can already get started on. But you will need some more enables to really complete things.17:24
faenil<faenil> koopajah, yes, that's the future Nemomobile UI17:24
faenil<faenil> jbache, like? can you be more specific? :D17:24
faenil<koopajah> faenil> that looks awesome!17:24
faenil<jbache> faenil: well we don't have a standard ListDelegate for starters17:24
faenil<jbache> and we are a bit concerned about creating a kitchen-sink solution that works or all platforms17:24
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faenil<faenil> for listedelegate you mean17:24
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faenil<jbache> We will provide something out of the box, but it is not possible to make it look completely native on all platforms. In the end it might require you to do Nemo specifc UI components.17:24
faenil<faenil> well we don't expect qtquickcontrols will provide all we need17:24
faenil<faenil> ok ;)17:24
faenil<jbache> yeah17:24
faenil<faenil> how do you expect that will be worked around for official ios and android releases?17:24
faenil<jbache> that said, everything you have in that UI has been done in QML before so it is just a matter of finding a nice API for it :)17:24
faenil<faenil> jbache, well, that's not all, we should add something like pulley menus from SailfishOS17:24
faenil<jbache> right. That is probably a bit more effort17:24
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faenil<faenil> jbache, so, can you write a small list of what is going to be added/changed in the coming months?17:24
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faenil<maxlem> hanser: I juste did a test : declared a MouseArea under my QQuickItem-derived, it received events17:24
faenil<maxlem> haser: sorry I did a cut and paste error in the pastebin17:24
faenil<jbache> faenil: apart from what I mentioned I don't know the specifics yet. We don't know how exactly how much will be ready for 5.2 yet. But I don't see anything in your UI proposal that would require changes yet though, as long as you are ok with creating custom controls.17:24
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faenil<maxlem> i declared the event handler in the QSG node in the example I gave you17:24
faenil<maxlem> hanser: it works with a QQuickView, my real problem is that in my actual code I wrap the QQuickView in a QWidget using createWindowContainer()17:25
faenil<faenil> jbache, ok ;) is there any guide for styling controls? or should I just create a new folder like https://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qtquickcontrols/trees/stable/src/styles/Desktop17:25
faenilStskeeps, that could expire, or it could go down :D17:25
faenil<jbache> faenil: you can create a new folder and set the QT_QUICK_CONTROLS_STYLE environment. Note that not everything in the styles is considered public API, but for platform development that is the simples option right now17:25
faenil<jbache> that environment can just point to a style folder on your drive17:25
faenil<maxlem> hanser: http://pastebin.com/DtLGhYQL17:25
faenil<jbache> faenil: it is probably better to use the Base style as a starting point as it does not depend on widgets17:25
faenil<faenil> jbache, ok, thanks :) so that's enough :)17:25
faenil<jbache> faenil: but the controls _are_ somewhat desktop centric. Expect to hit some road blocks. Let us know when you do...17:25
faenil<faenil> jbache, oh, I see...well, that is what I was worried about...I don't know what's missing to be ok for mobile :/17:25
faenil<jbache> faenil: well that is why we need to research this in the coming months17:25
faenil<Morpog_> wasn't there effort for mobile centric controlls?17:25
faenil<faenil> Morpog_, not yet it seems17:25
faenil<Morpog_> well, qt-components could be a good starting point17:25
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faenil<maxlem> haser: well don`t know what I did, but it works now17:25
faenil<jbache> the effort is what we are doing right now17:25
faenil<faenil> jbache, but you said only Switch and ListDelegate APIs is what's coming17:25
faenil<faenil> in what are the current controls more desktop-centric?17:25
faenil<jbache> faenil: for the most part there is not much different. Slider and Button works exactly the same way on the desktop.  A TableView on the other hand is not something you would usually use on touch17:25
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faenil<jbache> you can of course ignore those17:25
faenil<maxlem> hanser: sorry17:25
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faenil<faenil> jbache, exactly17:25
faenil<jbache> SpinBox is not style capable but again it is not a control that is used on Touch platforms17:26
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faenil<faenil> jbache, though there's SpinBox style?17:26
faenil<jbache> ComboBox has some issues on Android as it creates a native top level window, but we will resolve that17:26
faenil<faenil> I see, go on :D17:26
faenil<faenil> I see, go on :D17:26
faenil<jbache> faenil: yes there is, we just did not publish the public API for it yet. You can style it with private API of course17:26
faenil<jbache> but it _might_ change before the release17:26
faenil<faenil> yeah, well we can't afford to bother about "relatively" small changes :)17:26
faenil<jbache> yep17:26
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faenil<hanser> maxlem sorry i was afk, so is it working atm ?17:26
faenil<maxlem> hanser: well in my example project yes, still have to find out where is the problem in my real code, but I know it can work now, thanks17:26
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faenil<faenil> jbache, ok, I guess we'll keep a separate repo, merge changes from upstream when needed, and have a separate folder for styles :)17:26
faenilfinished :)17:26
faenilMorpog_, I guess just fork nemomobile qtquickcontrols repo, at the moment17:27
faeniland start writing styles17:27
Morpog_and how to test?17:31
Morpog_on sailfishos emu?17:31
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locusfor nemo wayland vm?17:36
Morpog_that image is not public available, or?17:36
qwazixsledgeSim, was making a vm for that reason and said he'd share once he fixed some things17:37
locusfits buildable17:39
Morpog_not everyone has a setup for that ready :)17:41
locusfindeed17:44
faenilqwazix, I published a tutorial for the wayland VM image as well, about a week ago18:26
faenilMorpog_, qwazix I wonder why you guys aren't using it yet actually :P18:27
qwazixI know, I didn't get to set it up yet. I just mentioned sledgeSim's effort as he was doing something specific for styling qqc18:27
faenilyeah it's on nemomobile github already ;)18:28
faenilMorpog_, test on wayland vm ;)18:29
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faenilFingerterm QtQuick2 with Landscape/Portrait lock modes now available!18:46
faenilOne more core app port is done :)18:47
faenilHurrian, ping18:57
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Morpog_well faenil you will need to guzide me through settinup build process19:32
Morpog_not now :)19:32
faenileh :P19:32
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Morpog_on windows of course :D19:33
faenilMorpog_, forget that? :D19:34
Morpog_damn, I knew it :)19:35
faenil:P19:35
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sledgeSim\o/ fingerterm faenil !!21:27
sledgeSimthe most crucial app for developers :D21:28
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faenilsledgeSim, :)21:57
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faenilsledgeSim, ping22:14
faenilHurrian, ping22:15
Hurrianfaenil: png22:15
faenilHurrian, hey :) qwazix said you have already sliced graphics to use in components?22:15
Hurrianfaenil: not quite but close: http://hurrian.github.io/glacier22:16
Hurrianhttp://hurrian.github.io/glacier/components.html22:16
faenilHurrian, yeah I've seen those pages already :)22:16
faenilI meant single graphics files22:16
faenilthat I can use to style qtquickcontrols22:16
Hurrianunfortunately, not yet. if you have the PSD, you can lift the shapes off that though :/22:17
faenilHurrian, me != graphics22:17
faenil:D22:17
faenildo you have any ETA on that?22:17
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Hurrianuhh, after next week, I guess. prelim exams and all.22:18
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faeniloh, I see22:18
faenilnothing then, I'll be away already22:18
Hurriangot a free day the Monday after next so I guess that's when I'll get cracking22:18
faenilHurrian, good luck with the exams22:18
specialyou get whole *days* free?22:18
specialwow.22:18
Hurriangonna need 'em.22:18
* special misses free time22:18
faenilspecial, eheheh22:19
Morpog_just had 3 weeks free :)22:19
faenilbut workers are "supposed" to have free time every evening22:19
Hurrianspecial: just finished high school, and can feel my free time evaporating already.22:19
faenilwhile you can't say the same for students22:19
faenilat least not here22:19
Morpog_next time I get free will be xmas :(22:20
faenilI guess special will work 24/7 at least until The Jolla is out :D22:23
specialwish I could do 24/722:23
faenil:D22:23
specialdown that path lies insanity22:24
faenilyeah...22:24
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faenilgood night people22:33
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