Friday, 2013-10-11

sledgesfingerterm just built00:00
sledgeswill kick lipstick one more time00:00
sledgesfingers cross(compil)ed ;)00:00
zbenjamini mean on your own machine00:01
zbenjaminbecause you are a nemo junkie ;)00:01
sledgesnot on this machine00:01
sledgesand not now00:01
sledgeshistorically I ran into many problems building locally with `mb build`00:02
sledgesthere are so many ways to build in nemo :D00:02
zbenjaminthe wrong version numbers suck00:03
zbenjaminif you use mb build00:03
sledgesi've seen too many errors there :{00:04
sledgesso i go for obs build00:04
sledgesor semi-local -- osc build00:04
zbenjaminstill blocked?00:05
sledgessadly yes00:07
sledgesmaybe some deps are rebuilding00:07
zbenjaminok lets wait for tomorrow then00:09
sledgesas i said, the new day will dawn00:09
sledgesand everyone will see what we've done :D00:09
special"service in progress" is a bit strange.00:09
sledgesgNight for now :)00:09
sledgesneeds a kick i reckon00:09
sledges(as Mer core is not rebuilding now)00:10
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zbenjamini just found a new bug just by looking at journalctl00:12
zbenjamingreat now i need to fix it00:12
specialhaha, yup00:13
zbenjaminanyway gnight now00:28
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Morpog_N9___good job sledges, zbenjamin04:41
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sledgeslipstick obs needs a good kick though..06:03
sledgesStskeeps: maybe you? :)06:04
sledgesthanks Morpog_N9___06:04
sledges(link to it on #mer)06:09
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Sfiet_Konstantinmorning ZogG_laptop !07:58
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sonoi got an n900 from an irc pal because i never had one, and the idea of a linux based phone appeals, of course..08:04
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sonothing is i tried the nemo image, and it doesn't seem ready for daily use, it's very slow..08:04
sonoi would like to go "bleeding edge", i do professional work on the AM335x, so yea..08:04
sonowould you say that nemo on the n900 is ready for daily use, if i do it right?08:05
sonoor should i just use maemon and a chroot debian08:05
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sonothe battery status indicator remains blank.. hmm08:08
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sonoi don't mind that stuff is incomplete08:09
sonobut everything is extremely sluggy..08:09
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Sfiet_Konstantinsono: nemo is not for daily08:11
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Sfiet_Konstantinsono: we are doing a technologic transition08:12
Sfiet_KonstantinNemo might be (in the future) a good alternative to Maemo or MeeGo08:12
Sfiet_Konstantinbut right now, ... no08:12
Sfiet_Konstantinyou are free to test and contribute by talking to us and get more interested in nemo project tohugh08:13
zbenjaminsledges: did it build?08:13
sonothank you Sfiet_Konstantin =)08:14
Sfiet_Konstantinsono: welcome in nemomobile channel :)08:15
sonoi shall set up the build system tonight08:15
Sfiet_Konstantinso hacking already ?08:15
sonoi'm at work, doing work stuff08:15
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm at school, doing school stuff08:16
sonosleep well =p08:16
zbenjaminlets agree everyone is everywhere doing stuff ;)08:16
zbenjaminfaenil: morning08:17
Sfiet_Konstantinhi boss, faenil08:17
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, lol08:17
Sfiet_Konstantindidn't had time to contribute to nemo the latest days08:17
faenilI decided, I'll start studying today (last words...)08:18
Sfiet_Konstantinfor an exam ?08:18
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: I have exam next week :(08:18
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faenilSfiet_Konstantin, yeah, the huge exam I've been postponing this month :(08:21
faenilgood luck with yours08:21
Sfiet_Konstantinmine might be rather easy08:21
Sfiet_Konstantinnot easy08:21
zbenjaminfaenil: patches are merged btw08:21
faenilzbenjamin, yeah, awesome :)08:23
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, eh :(08:24
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: good lock with yours too08:24
Sfiet_Konstantinespecially since it is huge08:24
Sfiet_Konstantinbetter graduate and then no exams !08:24
zbenjaminfaenil: next steps will be: make desktop and apps rotate08:24
faenilzbenjamin, yeah08:25
zbenjaminfaenil: is the desktop using components too? or a homegrown rotation handing?08:25
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, yeah :( if I manage to pass this exam on Nov14th, I'll finish exams in Jan! \o/08:25
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faenilzbenjamin, it's using qtcomponents, but I don't know if the orientation is handled by components as well, as it is a special window in compositor iirc, where they do direct rendering, so it might be treated differently. w00t or special may say something more about this08:26
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, yeah, cool indeed, I just have to start studying :( and study all days from morning to evening for more than 1 month..08:27
Sfiet_Konstantinno boss in nemo :(08:27
faenilwhich is something I have never done :P (except projects of course, but that's much more fun)08:27
Sfiet_Konstantinany compilers exams ?08:27
faenilpassed that :)08:27
faenilbut it's all theory, don't ask anything about gcc or anything ( unfortunately :( )08:28
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zbenjaminsounds like "fun" ;)08:30
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Sfiet_KonstantinI just remember that compilers was faenil's nemesis08:30
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, yeah, I love theory about that stuff, it's just we had the wrong professor...08:31
Sfiet_Konstantinthe professor is indeed the most important component of a course08:31
faenilanyway, I've been very lucky in that exam, the prof has been extremely kind to me, so, it's all history :)08:32
faenilnow, if only TextArea offered the line of the cursor position...I'd be happier :P08:33
zbenjamini thought you have to study all day long ;)08:33
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: compute it08:34
Sfiet_KonstantinQFontMetrics ?08:34
Sfiet_Konstantinand +1 zbenjamin08:34
faenilzbenjamin, I thought as well :D08:34
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, not that important to go down to c++08:34
Sfiet_Konstantinsomeone please /kick faenil08:34
faenilit's for the livecoding page I'm pushing to qqc Nemo :)08:34
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: it is the worst case scenario08:34
zbenjaminkickban for a month ;)08:35
Sfiet_KonstantinI won't risk myself for QFontMetrics08:35
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: ah, livecoding page ?08:35
faenilyep, to develop new components :)08:35
Sfiet_Konstantinisn't there already some coude out there08:35
Sfiet_Konstantinlike venemo's terminal ?08:35
faenilcould be, haven't checked ;) wanted to do mine :)08:35
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sonoyou know how it is.. young guys like to do it by themselves a lot08:37
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sono"hmm i don't quite like this clock app, let's make a better one" =)08:38
sonoit's cute08:38
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faenilsono, you know, livecoding is so short you'd spend more time reading someone else's code than writing yours ;) so, there's a point in what I do :)08:39
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faenilyou know what, no line counting for now :) you'll do that with your finger, lol08:45
* zbenjamin hates sql 08:45
* zbenjamin hates it even more if a query fails but does not return ANY error messages08:45
Sfiet_Konstantinzbenjamin: then you will like sqlite08:46
Sfiet_Konstantinand Qt SQL management08:46
zbenjamini'm on psql + qt08:46
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zbenjaminseriously, qsql can not give me the error message from the server? gngngngngngngn08:56
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* sono doesn't do Qt since some years..09:00
Sfiet_Konstantinzbenjamin: QSqlQuery::lastError ?09:00
Sfiet_Konstantinno ?09:00
zbenjaminits empty :/09:01
sonocan you try the same query in a more fully featured query editor?09:01
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zbenjaminyeah i found the error already pasting it in a editor, but that sucks ;)09:01
sonoyea, that seems unusual.09:02
Sfiet_Konstantindriver problem ?09:02
Sfiet_Konstantinit sould work :(09:02
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zbenjaminah i found it, when the code throws a exception it does not include driverText()09:04
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* Morpog_N9 yawns09:18
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* sono loses grip of his n900, which flips into Morpog_N9's gaping mouth09:19
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* sono pulls the phone out09:27
zbenjaminthis conversation starts to get weird09:29
sonono weirder than what i'm doing at work right now09:29
* sono had to do some minor changes on a legacy product built with freescale codewarrior and renesas hew09:30
* sono now battles the build process, which is neither automated nor sane09:30
zbenjaminyeah build systems ....09:31
zbenjaminwhen are they ever sane?09:31
sonoi've seen some shit in my life but this is second worst09:31
sonoworst was CE platform builder09:31
zbenjaminmy next task is to rewrite the build process of a big product to cmake .... that will be __fun__09:32
sonocould be worse09:32
sonocould be autotools09:32
zbenjaminhaha true lol09:32
zbenjaminnormally i prefer qmake, but that is just a bit too complex for qmake09:33
sononobody ever got fired for using cmake09:33
zbenjaminlets hope it stays that way ;) !09:33
sonothis unholy conglomerate of proprietary IDEs and batch files on the other hand, ... did09:33
sonoso now our team gets to maintain it09:34
sonoi've built this thing before...09:34
zbenjaminonce there was a time ...09:37
zbenjaminwhere buildsystems didn'T suck ;)09:37
zbenjaminchriadam: is qbs ready for daily use?09:38
chriadamI don't know from personal experience, tbh, but there was a blogpost about it on a while back, saying that it was ready for primetime iirc09:39
zbenjaminyeah but that was the last time anyone talked about it, which usually is not a good thing ;)09:39
zbenjamin but its active09:40
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aknightqbs was mentioned quite a bit at devdays09:49
aknightthere is definitely interest/engagement in it09:50
aknighti also learned that it's pronounced "cubes" :)09:51
zbenjaminaknight: yeah i didn't make it to devdays this year :/09:52
aknightzbenjamin: well then you missed wiggly running on the surface rt :P09:53
zbenjaminhmpf !09:53
zbenjaminhow is state of the network module btw?09:53
aknightnot sure, i haven'09:53
aknightt had time to check09:54
zbenjamini would like to compile my quassel app without all that ugly jailbreaking09:54
aknighti inherited a surface rt now so i would like to see quassel running on it as well09:54
zbenjamini can maybe send you the package09:54
zbenjaminbut its my hacked version09:55
aknightusing glacier components, perhaps? ;)09:55
zbenjaminnah the normal QtGui version09:55
zbenjaminsorry its Widgets now09:55
aknightsure, i just mean it would be nice to do a controls version eventually09:55
zbenjaminthats true09:56
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faenilline counting works \o/10:08
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: go to study10:10
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, stfu :P :D10:10
sono10:18 < faenil> I decided, I'll start studying today (last words...)10:12
sonotechnically, if he sits down at 23:58 and opens his notes, ...10:13
faenilsono, now you're talking10:15
zbenjaminhaha lol10:15
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faenilplease review:
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faenilsledges, locusf ^11:04
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faenilbbl, lesson :(11:29
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sledgeszbenjamin: faenil, lipstick is now built with orientation12:35
sledgesdup away :)12:35
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locusfgaah, black screen :/12:39
sledgeslocusf: lipstick-colorful-home latest?12:39
locusfoh yeah not12:40
sledgesnot to what? ;)12:40
locusfnot updated to latest :)12:41
sledgeswhew ;P12:41
locusfhas the qtcomponents rotation been fixed?12:42
sledgesfignerterm also12:42
sledgesit should rotate12:42
sledges(if latest ver ;D)12:42
sledgesand iÄf ...-sensorfw plugin installed manually12:42
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sledgeslocusf: does it rotate?13:08
sledgesi wanna tweet :D13:08
zbenjamini want to know too ;)13:10
zbenjamindesktop does not rotate , only fingerterm will atm13:10
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Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: why did you called a button "butt" ?13:13
Sfiet_Konstantinseriously, it don't sound good :D13:13
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: talking about
sledgesxD and it all LGTM :D13:14
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locusfsledges: it doesn't or I don't know how to activate the rotation?13:21
sledges(locusf the fingerterm that is)13:22
locusfit doesn't rotate13:22
sledgeszbenjamin: ^13:23
zbenjaminhm you also updated fingerterm?13:23
zbenjaminif you start lipstick with debug enabled it should print messages about rotation13:23
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sledgeslocusf: zypper se (inlove)13:24
sledgeslocusf: zypper se qt5-qtsensors-plugin-sensorfw13:24
sledgesis it installed and are you inlove with nemo? :D13:24
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locusfit wasn't13:26
locusfis now13:26
sledgesshould work now13:27
locusfit does13:27
zbenjaminyay ;D13:27
locusfcalendar also rotated13:28
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locusfor started as landscape13:28
zbenjaminall apps will now start in the orientation of the phone13:28
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zbenjamincorrection: all apps using qt-components do13:29
locusfglacier components gallery doesn't13:29
locusfalways landscape, but no biggie13:29
zbenjamincould be locked13:29
zbenjaminas dialer also doesn't do it13:30
sledgesqqc does not have rotation support13:30
sledgeswe'll have to come up with something13:30
zbenjaminfaenil does not like my idea of reusing the qtcomponents rotation code13:31
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sledgeshave we looked at QtForTizen qqc rotation code if any?13:39
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zbenjamini did not but good idea13:44
sledgesit is:
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sledgeszbenjamin: haha
sledgesa voice from above :D13:59
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zbenjaminsledges: lol , good to know ;)14:08
Sfiet_Konstantinnice :)14:15
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil YOU SHOULD WORK14:15
Sfiet_Konstantindon't even tweet !!!14:15
faenilback o/14:24
faenilyou shouldn't post interesting stuff on log while I'm at lesson, or my 6th sense forces me to refresh the page :P14:24
sledgestelepethy eh :))14:25
faenilsledges, but yeah I have been wanting to reply to chat stuff from twitter for a long time :D14:25
* faenil prepares new PR14:26
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zbenjaminfaenil: you got orientation handling already for qqc's ? are you studying at all?14:34
faenilzbenjamin, nope14:34
faenil(not studying, lol)14:34
zbenjaminthought so ;)14:35
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faenilalterego, sup14:40
* faenil merges14:43
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sledgesshall I tag it faenil ?14:46
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Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: please, correct butt14:48
Sfiet_Konstantincall it button or anything else14:48
Sfiet_Konstantinanything but butt14:48
sledgeswhy so sensitive Sfiet_Konstantin ? ;)14:48
Sfiet_Konstantinmy butt is sensitive14:48
Sfiet_Konstantinsorry it is friday14:48
sledgesvariables are often abbreviated, and button is one of the most frequent variables these days :D14:49
Sfiet_Konstantinat least in QML you have scopes14:49
Sfiet_Konstantinor you can call it root or container14:49
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm quite against abbreviated stuff14:49
Sfiet_Konstantinonly tolerated stuff is really explicit stuff like qml or db14:50
sledgesfair play14:50
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, ahahah lol14:50
Sfiet_Konstantinbut usually, my variable names are rather long14:50
sledgesx) still friday Sfiet_Konstantin ? :D14:50
faenilsledges, I hope another PR will come soonish, so no need to tag right now I think14:50
zbenjaminlocusf: i'm also really worried about that butt conversation ;)14:50
Sfiet_Konstantinbut it is not really about a defect here, more about conventions14:50
Sfiet_Konstantinno abbreviated stuff plz people :)14:50
sledgesfaenil: ok14:51
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, you shouln't exploit scope in QML :P14:51
sledgesi got my guns loaded14:51
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: why not ?14:51
sledgeswas quite trigger happy yesterday :))14:51
zbenjaminSfiet_Konstantin: abbreviated stuff? like plz?14:51
Sfiet_Konstantinzbenjamin: in variable names14:51
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, it's on all guidelines, avoid it unless you're in the same item14:51
Sfiet_Konstantinwell played zbenjamin14:51
Sfiet_Konstantinwell played :D14:51
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: ok :)14:51
Sfiet_Konstantinbut you have to avoid abbreviated stuff too :)14:52
NeeDforKill__hey guys14:52
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, deal :D14:52
Sfiet_Konstantinhey NeeDforKill__14:52
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: :14:52
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, I hate abbreviated names myself :/14:52
NeeDforKill__what's new?14:52
Sfiet_KonstantinNeeDforKill__: my headache ?14:52
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, I like nameWhichExplainsWhatThisVarIsFor more14:52
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: +114:52
Sfiet_Konstantinme too :)14:52
faenilback to page :P14:53
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faenilfor those who want to help, let's research how toolbar animations work in other toolkits (qt-components, ubuntu touch, etc914:57
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faenilso many people...I'm amazed :P15:06
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: lol15:07
Sfiet_Konstantinleave me alone15:07
locusfwhere, here?15:07
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm hacking ! :D15:08
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, you're hacking the right thing :P15:08
faenilwrong* sorry15:08
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: :D15:08
Sfiet_Konstantinnot sure that it is wrong15:08
faenilare you doing the trumpet?15:08
Sfiet_Konstantintaking a break from the trumpet15:09
faenilthen it's the wrong thing ;)15:09
Sfiet_Konstantindoing something that is as painful15:09
locusfI'm doing the trumpet, somewhat15:09
faenillocusf, great :)15:09
Sfiet_Konstantinlocusf: please do it, I can take your code afterwards15:09
Sfiet_Konstantinor if you don't want, I can keep doing it :)15:09
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locusfhackish stuff15:10
Sfiet_Konstantinlocusf: did you sent it to PR ?15:10
* Morpog_PC thinks deep inside you guys all love that trumpet :D15:10
locusfit is in PR now15:10
Sfiet_KonstantinIIRC I took your code as an inspiration15:10
Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_PC: everybody loves the trumpet :/15:10
locusfdamn trumpet15:11
faenilI think it's not a good idea because of the space it takes, but we agreed :)15:11
faenilalterego, ping15:12
faenilalterego, what are the cons of having a toolbar in each page15:13
faenilinstead of having it in appwindow and animating its content15:13
faenilbecause having one for each page suits QQC best15:13
alteregoWell, it's really just page loading time.15:13
alteregoAnd even that is probably not noticeable.15:14
faenilbut, you're loading the content in any case15:14
faenilso what's the perf increase, not loading the container? :/15:14
faenilsledges, good boy :D15:15
alteregoWell, I suppose there are three ways, 1) Do like Qt Components did, and use one toolbar and read pages. 2) Have a toolbar per page instantiated by the page when it's loaded. 3) Have a global toolbar that is assigned to the page when it's selected.15:15
alteregoFrom my perspective, it's more about how you plan on doing transitions between pages and potentially applications.15:15
alteregoPerformance isn't going to be a massive concern.15:15
locusfMorpog_PC: qwazix:
faenilalterego, I was thinking about letting user modify transitions15:16
locusfMorpog_PC: qwazix:
zbenjaminfaenil: in ubuntu touch the toolbar slides out of the window, but its a own toolbar in every window15:16
faenilthis is already possible in QQC for what concerns page transition15:16
zbenjaminyou can slide it in with a swipe up15:16
faenilsono, ahaha15:16
alteregofaenil: I quite like how Windows Phone does it, they provide a set of tincan transitions and the developer can choose whatever one, or have them executed randomlu.15:16
sonofaenil: butt.push()!15:16
faenilzbenjamin, yes of course each page has its own toolbar...what about the component itself though15:17
faenilsono, o/15:17
alteregoMight be a good idea to add transition theming support, at least that's what I was thinking of doing with something I'm working on anyway :)15:17
zbenjaminfaenil: what do you mean?15:17
faenilalterego, yep15:17
sonoeven thought one might wonder how i managed to push with both arms up.15:17
sonoafk, laters =)15:17
faenilalterego, QQC already provide page transitioning feature15:17
faenilalterego, code from silica I'm using for Page provides orientation transitioning handling15:17
faeniltoolbar is the only missing :)15:18
faenilthough it's automatic if there's one toolbar each page15:18
alteregoJust do it per page for now.15:18
alteregoWe can always review the pros & cons.15:18
alteregoI'm sure there are more important things to do that worry about that for now ;)15:18
alterego~than ..15:18
faenilyeah, can't see real reason why we would not want that, except if we want a bar which stays still, like bb10 in some apps15:19
faeniland page transitions15:19
alteregoThat can be replicated with transitions.15:19
alteregoKeep toolbar anchored to window, and fade out then fade in new toolbar. Or whatever.15:19
alteregoIt's pretty arbitrary when you think about it :)15:19
faenilalterego, have to check if that's the case for qqc transitions in stackview15:19
Morpog_PClocusf, looking good so far15:20
Morpog_PCfont is wrong or?15:20
Morpog_PCand not really centered?15:20
locusfMorpog_PC: yup, known issue15:20
faenilzbenjamin, ToolBarActions could just be the content of the toolbar, not the toolbar itself15:21
Morpog_PCwhere is the finger on 2nd pic?15:21
locusfI don't remember :D15:21
Morpog_PCon the end of blue rectangle, or?15:21
zbenjaminfaenil: as you can see the toolbar is part of the page, there is no Toolbar component imho15:21
zbenjaminerr afaik15:21
locusfMorpog_PC: pretty much yeah15:21
locusfMorpog_PC: I can't see the value if thats what you are wondering15:22
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faenilzbenjamin, maybe you haven't looked deep enough :)
zbenjamingrmbl ok15:23
faenilzbenjamin, :) so ubuntu touch has only one toolbar as well, and pages just replace its content15:23
zbenjaminlooks like it15:24
Morpog_PCyou can't see the value??15:24
alteregoThey probably copied a lot from qt-components ;)15:25
faenilalterego, just what I was thinking15:25
faenileven if code is much more readable15:25
faeniland less messy :15:25
alteregoThey probably just cleaned it a bit :P15:26
faenil:) anyway...15:26
faenilnot sure if it's worth having an orientation transition at page level like silica15:26
faenilmaybe appwindow level15:27
alteregoAnyone here used git-pkg ?15:29
alteregonvm, I'll just see if I can break it :)15:30
faenilalterego, to do what15:31
alteregoI was just reading the wrong instructions, found some better ones now ;)15:31
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faenilguys, I was thinking that if we use the Theme element we can't provide compatibility with standard QQC apps :(15:43
faenilas they will have to import QQC.Styles.Nemo15:43
faenilnot a big problem15:44
faenilthey just have to install nemo components15:45
faenilthen they can use default QQC apps, but with Nemo styling15:45
faenilif they don't want/havetime to port them to Nemo QQC15:45
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Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: indeed. Nemo theming should be used with Nemo IMO15:52
Sfiet_Konstantinwe need to extend QQC, since we have our specific stuff15:53
Sfiet_Konstantinit eases ports but do not dispense from doing ports15:53
Sfiet_Konstantinright now QQC is not mature enough so we cannot guarantee anything anyway15:53
faenilSfiet_Konstantin, it is important to have QQC apps running on Nemo Styling without needing to port though15:53
faenilyea, that's the problem15:53
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: wait for Qt 5.3 ?15:53
faenilholy f, :D15:53
Sfiet_Konstantinand cooperate with upstream15:54
Sfiet_KonstantinQt 5.3 is in just 6 month15:54
Sfiet_Konstantinit is nothing15:54
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zbenjamini hate javascript works for small code pieces here and there16:00
zbenjaminbut for apps in the browser ... argh16:00
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faenilI feel guilty when I have to do stuff like16:07
faenilvar backgroundItem = data[1].parent.parent16:07
faenilit's like "I want to get there, I know I shouldn't, but this is JS and I want to do it" xD16:07
Sfiet_KonstantinMOAAAR Pull requests16:18
Sfiet_Konstantinfaenil: don't feel guilty, be ashamed16:18
faenilI'm having such fun hacking to get this stuff done :D16:19
Sfiet_Konstantinjust pushed 4 PR in the same time :D16:21
Sfiet_Konstantin(not related to components though)16:22
faenil(fu :P)16:22
Sfiet_Konstantinstill related to nemo :)16:23
Sfiet_Konstantingtg bbl16:24
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faenilorientation working \o/17:38
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locusfcompletely working?17:40
faenillocusf, completely as in? :D17:43
locusffaenil: lipstick rotation?17:43
faenilI'm working on qqc glacier controls..17:43
locusfwell good nevertheless :)17:43
faenildo we need rotation in lipstick? the homescreen will be rewritten anyway17:44
faenilusing qqc17:44
locusfwell not really then17:44
faenilso it doesn't make much sense making it rotate now..does it17:44
faenilgtg, guess I will have to wait for tomorrow to publish it :(17:50
qwazixbacklogs become longer by the day! yay!18:04
qwazix<faenil> [22:48:19] we can avoid that by not allowing levels when in landscape18:04
qwazixor we can auto-hide the header18:04
qwazixand how did you remove the button hack?18:04
qwazixand icon limit: noted18:04
qwazixand locusf trumpet looks good to me. Still using image? If yes we should find a way to be able to change the color programmatically18:05
qwazixMorpog_PC, do you think we can fit arrows in the vkb (at least < >) or should we put them in the selection magnifier like BB10?18:08
sandy_lockeqwazix, screenshot for that ^ ?18:15
sandy_lockethe bb10 magnifier18:16
qwazixsandy_locke, saw your mail, I had just forgotten about it, just a sec18:16
sandy_lockenp ;)18:16
qwazixI like the progress bar, it needs a bit of polish but we can go on with that.18:17
sandy_lockethx :)18:17
sandy_lockeyeah it's far from production quality18:17
qwazixThe switch is not bad, it looks a bit like the one I had drafted at first, but I'm not sure it is a substantial improvement over what we already specced, so let's not do duplicate work.18:18
sandy_lockeok, it was just a thought mocked up quickly18:19
sandy_lockewhat's the current spec ? the one from the repo ?18:19
qwazixyep, repo18:20
sandy_lockeqwazix, yeah, like those kind of magnifier, but be careful to put it above the text to be selected if implemented18:20
qwazixwhen you tap the circle, it works like arrows if you tap the right half it moves one letter to the right18:21
sandy_lockeI'm angry agains apple and nokia to have put the magnifier just on top of the text18:21
qwazixvery nice feature18:21
sandy_lockemmh, clever, so the magnifier stays even if you release the touch ?18:21
qwazixyep, and you can see it's not really a magnifier18:22
qwazixit's just a handle to move the cursor18:22
qwazixI find it much easier to use than nokia/apple solution18:22
sandy_lockeyeah seems like it18:23
sandy_lockeyou own a bb ?18:23
sandy_lockeyou tried ?18:23
qwazixbut the nudging feature is killer, all those times you are just off by a letter...18:23
qwazixyeah, using a Z10 as daily phone18:23
sandy_lockemmh, would have tried it if it weren't from bb (the one who spied on their bbm in london few years ago)18:24
sandy_lockebut now bb is dead, though the Z10 seem like a nice little device ;)18:24
sandy_lockelike their UI, but never experienced it18:25
sandy_lockeanyway, you plan on adding this kind of "magnifier" into nemo ?18:25
qwazixI don't like their UI much, it's a bit confusing and it looks last-gen design.18:25
sandy_lockeseriously ?18:25
sandy_lockeseemed to me that they had quite advanced swipe interface and nice presentation18:26
qwazixyeah, too many menus all over the place, and their notifications system is too complicated18:26
qwazixBUT, it is a very very productive device18:26
qwazixyou can do almost everything, without being stupidly limited by the system. Real multitasking, file system access18:27
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sandy_lockeqwazix, hmm interesting article18:32
sandy_lockethough some of those quircks can be found in harmattan18:32
sandy_locke(i.e: the disappearing back button, and for me the swipe down keyboard doesn't work^^)18:33
qwazixharmattan is much simpler, and a bit more limited too18:33
sandy_lockeyes but simpler is what I like about this os18:33
qwazixbut it compensates by being more open18:33
qwazixharmattan is more open even with aegis turned on18:34
sandy_lockealthough it's true that without all the community behind it and it's openness it would not be a poweruser phone18:34
Morpog_Mobileqwazix: i would prefer it in magnifier selection, as on localized vkb's it would get too narrow. So being more consistent if it's not only on some vkb18:34
sandy_lockeMorpog_Mobile, qwazix, and did you see the arrow stick from webos community edition ?18:35
qwazixsandy_locke, no, screeny?18:35
sandy_lockeqwazix, just a sec18:35
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sandy_lockeqwazix, Morpog_Mobile, no way to find it. I could launch my touchpad if it still had batteries ^^ I'll make a sshot someday18:48
sandy_lockebut essentially it's a round stick that stands on the top right corner of the vkb18:49
sandy_lockeand it behaves like a physical stick18:49
qwazixsandy_locke, sounds nice18:50
sandy_lockejust put your finger on it, then move slightly to the right and the cursor moves to the right, and the farther you go with your finger, the fastest the cursor moves18:51
sandy_lockethe guys who did that made an excellent job, and this stick is flawless, and extremely accurate18:51
sandy_lockeI miss it !18:51
qwazixsandy_locke, Morpog_Mobile, idk if it is feasible but we could implement swipe on spacebar to nudge cursor left - right18:52
sandy_lockealthough I'm sure there's a way to make it less "monolithic" (because it takes from what really exists physically, the stick, so it's just an adaptation for screens)18:52
sandy_lockeqwazix, but you lose up down then18:53
sandy_lockeand left right w/o up down is damn frustrating !18:53
sandy_lockeit feels hal baked18:53
qwazixmaybe up/down too, if the swipe starts on space bar and ends anywhere18:54
sandy_lockeqwazix, yes I can see that: to make it feel right we must also find a way to have visual&haptic feedbacks18:55
sandy_lockevisual means that we see the space bar "roll" slightly in the way of the swipe18:55
sandy_lockebut yes, it's the best way to have cursor control without requiring more space18:57
qwazixor design a small compass-like icon on the space bar18:58
sandy_lockemeans a spacebar designed in two parts? or is it just for the visual feedback ?18:59
sandy_lockeicon seems good for visual feedback, although it adds clutter19:00
qwazixjust for the visual feedback, and with an opacity of say .2 just to give a hint19:05
qwazix(or we could use the accelerometer and tap on the sides like flipper :P)19:06
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Morpog_MobileOr long press on spacebar activates an overlayed cursorblock19:11
faenilalso, how do you move down if you have to start swiping from the space bar?19:12
qwazixfaenil, there is a bit of space, I don't know if it's enough, we're just brainstorming19:13
faenilqwazix, also, that would conflict with swipe to exit from app19:14
qwazixbtw butt.behavior is a new upstream property?19:14
faenilqwazix, it's always been there, it's an internal property, __behavior19:14
faeniland I didn't notice it before19:14
faenilit's not in API19:14
qwazixon harmattan you can't swipe from bottom while vkb is popped up19:15
faenilyeah, I put the Button in a SplitView and it stopped working xD so I had to find a solution :P19:15
faenilqwazix, ok19:15
qwazixanyway it's not the best of ideas, if you have something cooler I'm all ears19:15
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qwazixBB10 solution is not bad, that virtual tracking stick also might be a solution, or plain old vkb arrows19:16
faenilyeah, who knows19:16
* Morpog_Mobile still votes not to do it via vkb19:16
qwazixMorpog_Mobile, 5th row, optional?19:17
Morpog_MobileAweful on landscape19:18
qwazix(for portrait, landscape has enough space for arrows)19:18
qwazixnot very good looking but despite very low height, keys are perfectly usable19:19
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Morpog_MobileCould work19:21
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qwazixfaenil, I was fixing the ButtonRow spec with what we discussed and saw this "and...I did not understand the "adventorous hacker" part of button row" which I had missed.19:27
qwazixThe easiest way to implement a ButtonRow is with buttons that have equal width19:27
qwazixThe "adventurous hacker edition" of the buttonRow has unequal widths19:28
faenilyes but you say that will let you fit more buttons19:28
qwazixand arranges the contents by having equal distances between labels19:28
faenilwhich is not true if buttons have long texts19:29
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qwazixIf all buttons have long texts it will be the same19:29
faenilit will not19:29
faenillook at your picture19:31
faenilif all were "bristlemouth"19:31
faenilit would fit only 2 of them19:31
qwazixif all were bristlemouth it would fit only 2 either way19:31
qwazix(left is equal width buttons, right is equal spacing)19:31
faenilthen I didn't get your standard way of doing it19:32
qwazixsorry, top vs bottom19:32
faenilyes but if you set width = totalWidth / buttCount19:32
faenilmore of them fit19:32
qwazixYou just calculate the available space (buttonrow.width - text1.width - text2.width ...) and then divide it by the count of the buttons19:32
qwazixand you get the space between texts19:32
faenilyou can fit 5 bristlemouth if you cut the text19:33
qwazixyeah, ok19:33
qwazixI wasn't talking about cutting text19:34
qwazixYou can cut the text anyway19:34
qwazixI feel that even when all items are short the bottom arrangement feels more natural19:34
faenilok, I got what you meant now19:35
qwazixbut it makes it more difficult to do the sliding effect of the rectangle, because you have to dynamically change the width based on position19:35
qwazixit's not a huge usability gain, so I left it there as an option if you want to play with it19:35
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faenilso basically you split width, then get the buttons which still have empty space left19:37
faeniland split that space between all buttons19:37
qwazixyep, that's the long way around but yeah19:39
faenilwell, that's the algo I see19:40
qwazixI would just describe it as "take all the empty space and split it to equal parts" but yeah, we are saying the same thing.19:44
sandy_lockeqwazix, just a quick look at the idea from before :
sandy_lockereally quick look ^^:P19:46
qwazixsandy_locke, I like!19:46
qwazixsandy_locke, maybe put it between T, Y and G like thinkpad trackpoints?19:47
sandy_lockethe swipe up could be managed, but what about swipe down, if you're stuck by the edge of the screen ?19:47
qwazixthat would solve the swipe down19:48
sandy_lockeyes, nice idea, and would make ibm users comfortable ;)19:48
qwazixspace is small yeah, but we just need an indicator, real touch area can be quite big19:48
qwazixit will only trigger on swipe19:48
qwazix(and we can do it red just as a wink)19:49
sandy_lockeqwazix, we'd have patent issues :P19:51
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qwazixlooks very good19:52
sandy_lockeit's non-obtrusive, but is it implementable ?19:53
qwazixlocusf, pls check out the latest images posted by sandy_locke, you think it's doable?19:53
qwazixsandy_locke, we'll find out soon19:53
sandy_lockeI mean what will Maliit say ? ;)19:53
qwazixthat's why I asked locusf. Maliit definitely has support for gestures and cursor control (even on N9) so it must be possible19:54
sandy_lockeyes but has it ways of floating components in between rows and above other keys ?19:56
qwazixif I am not looking at the wrong repo it's just QML so we can do anything
Morpog_MobileIt's qml19:59
qwazixI was looking at the wrong repo, but it's still qml
qwazix(I see you joined after sandy_locke posted them)20:00
qwazixerr, that was just a hiccup, sorry for spam20:00
Morpog_MobileI checked on log20:00
Morpog_MobileIrc crashed on damn nexus 720:01
qwazixmeh, android20:01
Morpog_MobileCould 2ork well, especially 2nd pic like ibm20:02
Morpog_MobileGimme stable nemo on it and i change instsnt :)20:04
qwazixisn't what we are all trying to do?20:05
Morpog_MobileWell yeah20:05
sandy_lockefor christ sake ;)20:05
Morpog_MobileJust takes ages :D20:06
qwazixyeah but we'll have our very own mobile OS :))20:06
sandy_lockecan't you install sailfish on it Morpog_Mobile ? Isn't there a build for it somewhere ?20:06
Morpog_MobileAnd ruins studies like faenil :)20:07
qwazixand we aren't that many hands!20:07
Morpog_Mobilesandy_locke: not outside jolla20:07
sandy_lockearf :/20:07
qwazixheh, studies, who needs them... :P20:07
sandy_lockethey preserve their hard work20:08
sandy_lockeself teaching rule ;)20:08
sandy_lockeqwazix, read you pm's20:09
rcgwell, imho, studies == self teaching20:09
rcgbut then, well, yeah...20:10
qwazixjoking apart, studies are just a facilitator. Most freshmen know much less than somebody who hacked a bit on his own.20:11
sandy_lockercg, ah the semantic's ;)20:11
qwazixIf you have studied, and hack a bit on your own though, you learn faster20:11
rcghehe, yeah, there are many ways to get a degree and now nothing20:12
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rcgwas kinda surprised on the last interviews we had for a job, none of the applicants hacked at home, which was pretty frustrating20:12
rcgwhy would i want to give someone a job who doesn't show any passion and love for what he is doing20:13
sandy_lockeyeah hopefully (for me) in our line of work degrees are only a small part of the required stuffs ;)20:14
qwazixrecent interview, guy showed up for UI Developer, I asked what comes through your mind when I say UI Framework? He responds "Nothing"20:14
sandy_lockeThe guy has nothing to give, then20:14
rcgqwazix, hehe, there was that guy: q: "do you know test driven development", a: "yeah, i learned about it when i prepared for the interview", q: "great, so what can you tell me about tdd?", a: "oh, well, apparently, i didn't learn that much."20:15
qwazixlol, sounds like a dilbert strip20:16
sandy_locketdd is interesting, although I really don't like getting errors when I code !20:18
sandy_lockebut you can never do without them...20:18
rcgsandy_locke, i love tdd20:19
rcgat least in all my java and clojure projects i try to strictly follow tdd20:19
sandy_lockercg, I can see why, it's a good way to debug inline20:19
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sandy_lockeand it's a pleasure to know that your errors wil go away with just "this line!"20:22
rcgsandy_locke, imho there are many benefits, it changes the way you think about problems, fosters modular design, you get your regression tests for "free", refactoring is so much easier when you have a test suite you can use to verify the results, you can reproduce things automatically etc.20:22
sandy_lockewill try that in my next app20:24
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sandy_lockesee how I like it in situation20:24
rcgalso in debugging, first get a test case that fails the way the bug is described. then fixing the bug is just another test made succeed20:24
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rcgthere are also unit tests for qt and qml but for some reason i never started an qt/qml project the tdd way20:25
sandy_lockeit's true that it must make you see bugs as just normal proceedure, lessening the anger from further not wanted errors20:25
rcgdunno why actually20:25
rcgsandy_locke, and with each test case you get more confidence in your product20:26
rcgof course just the number of tests doesn't tell anything about coverage etc. but i don't wanna go into the very details :)20:27
sandy_lockeyes true, because you can then list the bugs that could happen, but were taken care of eventually during the coding20:27
rcgsandy_locke, nah, it's not about the bugs that can happen20:27
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rcgin the first place it's about the functionality you want20:28
sandy_lockeyes, I'm listening, find it interesting20:28
rcgin the second step it's a nice way that you can model bug reports as tests first and then fix them in a controlled an reproducible manner20:28
qwazixI always wondered what if you have a bug in your test? Doesn't that fuck you up for good?20:28
rcgqwazix, hehe, yeah, i see you spotted the hen and egg problem there20:29
rcgbut usually you start with very simple tests and then increase complexity20:29
qwazixI mean if you need to code f(x)=y don't you need to erm, implement g(x)=y to test your f(x)?20:30
rcgfurthermore, you can add tests to check that your pre-conditions for a test are fulfilled and the test runs the way it should20:30
rcgqwazix, kinda, but usually g(x) is rather simple20:30
sandy_lockeit's a good way to have a beautiful code, no ? I mean, where you can clearly see the blocks, if you handle it well20:31
qwazixbecause you choose an arbitrary case rather than a general one?20:31
rcgsay i want an add function f(x)=a+b), then i could construct test cases a=1,b=2,f(x)should be 3 etc.20:31
rcgand maybe i also want a test case for negative numbers as well20:32
rcgof course you don't do all test cases for N20:32
qwazixyeah but you can do at each part of f where it is monotonous, and you really have tested everything20:33
rcgusually, it's a bit like the peano axioms, you test the basics and critical cases that matter20:33
rcgqwazix, yeah like test for i and i+1 and then you can be pretty sure that it holds for all values.. more or less20:33
rcgthat's of course very simplified20:34
rcge.g. if you want to test a division function one test for sure should be divide by zero20:34
rcgon the other hand, in case you deal with really complicated functions there are even way to automatically generate your test data20:35
sandy_lockebut what does it give to make the test fail instead of making it work with known results ?20:36
rcgsandy_locke, it's also not really about the beauty of the code. it changes the way you think, and (i'm talking about bottom up here), you learn how to split your big problems into smaller ones and make more modular designs20:36
rcgsandy_locke, ?20:36
rcgusually you write the test first, making sure everything compiles by implementing stubs, the logic doesn't matter at first. at that point your test fails20:37
rcgthen you implement the logic making your test succeed20:37
rcgor mocks20:37
rcgi.e., stubs or mocks20:38
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sandy_lockedo you have an example , rcg ? like a link where I can see the first steps ?20:39
rcge.g., in case of an addition function, i'd write a test for f(a,b) that says f(1,2)=3. in order to compile it i need at least some f(x). as i don't care about the logic i would chose f(a,b)=020:39
qwazixvery interesting... I always thought it more like of a way to keep your developers on a leash, if you've got hordes of them.20:39
qwazixI hadn't heard anybody really like the approach in the actual coding part20:40
qwazixI'll certainly look more into it20:40
sandy_lockeyeah me too20:40
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rcgqwazix, actually, the coders are the ones who benefit most, i think :)20:41
sandy_lockercg, and what would you get with f(a,b)=0 in the debugger for instance ? what would be the output ?20:42
rcgmy test is f(1,2)=3, f(a,b)=0, so the test fails20:43
rcgit's not about the debugger btw.20:43
rcgthe debugger is something different again20:43
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rcgimagine you want to test f(a,b) the "normal" way as console application, you would code the application, compile it and then manually invoke f(a,b) with a=1 and b=2 just to see it fail20:44
rcgone point of testing is to automate things such that you don't need to do all the cumbersome stuff yourself20:45
sandy_lockeand when the test fails in this instance, how does it give you a clue that the test went "well" ?20:45
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rcgwell, 1. the code compiled, 2. the test didn't give an error which means that code-wise everythings ok so far, just the logic is not working20:45
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rcgso from there you would start to implement f(a,b), e.g., as f(a,b) = a+b20:46
rcgimplement the logic, that is20:46
rcgand when you run the test again after you implemented the logic f(a,b)=a+b, your test f(1,2)=3 should succeed20:46
rcgbtw. tests giving and error and tests failing are two different things ;)20:47
rcgif a test fails it means that everything compiles and runs, whereas an error means that something broke even in the testing part itself20:48
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sandy_lockeso if I set up a function and omit a variable on purpose, is it a fail or an error ?20:50
sandy_locke*variable declaration20:51
sandy_lockebecause the code compile, although the function give no result since the variable is not set20:51
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sandy_lockercg ^20:52
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sandy_lockewell, I'll be afk but still waiting for the answer ;)20:55
rcgin the addition example i would first write a test, define a=1 and b=2 then call c=add(a,b) and finally compare c=3, add is the function i want to implement20:55
rcgthen, apparently, to make the test compile i have to add a function "add" that takes exactly two arguments20:55
rcgat first, i just want the thing to compile so i'd do something like "int add(int a, int b) { return 0; }"20:56
rcgso, automatically, i have to implement that function with the right number of arguments because else my compiler would throw errors20:57
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rcgonce that works and the test runs then i can go into the details of implementing the logic inside the "add" procedure20:57
sandy_lockercg, so basically you first implement dummy functions with dummy variable to see if it compiles, and then put the real variable while enhancing the code ?21:03
rcgbtw. in more complex setups where you need to have certain pre-conditions, like assuring that a database is initialized and contains certain values you use so called "setup" and "tear down" methods to prepare your test environment and to clean it afterwards21:03
rcgthat's what stubbing and mocking does21:03
rcgin the example the dummy "add" function would be the stubb21:04
faenilqwazix, sorry I'm afk guys, can you please elaborate more on landscape header21:04
faenillevels etc21:04
sandy_lockercg, yeah, I asked myself about cleaning the code, do you have ways to automate the process, w/o cleaning by hand ?21:05
rcg*set up*21:05
rcgsandy_locke, cleaning the code?21:05
rcgtdd doesn't prevent you from writing ugly code. if it's that what you mean21:06
rcgyou can make all your tests pass even with stupid code21:06
sandy_lockeI mean, when you put stuffs just for testing purpose, but don't need it afterward, and taken that the testing code is redundant too, so a lot of it21:06
rcgbut if you find ugly code and refactor it, you can run the same tests and check easily that your refactoring didn't break anything21:07
sono^  this21:07
sononow give this man a pint21:07
alteregoUnit tests are extremely important21:07
alteregoFor any medium to large project.21:07
rcgsandy_locke, well, the tests are somewhat code that never goes into production, in fact, you usually design your tests explicitly this way such that the end-user never sees them. e.g., in an java eclipse project you would put all your tests into a different source folder21:09
sandy_lockercg, ok but with complex code, testing refactored code need to change lot of stuffs no ? Or did I miss something ?21:09
sandy_lockemmh ok21:09
rcgsono, me? thanks am already working on it :)21:09
sandy_lockeso you never test inline in the same source ? you always create testing files ?21:10
sonorcg: =)21:11
rcgsandy_locke, that's one reason i prefer bottom up testing. it keeps the the modules small at first and then increases complexity bit by bit.21:11
rcgand even if you change your design later on, your smaller modules are still reusable and tested21:11
rcgsandy_locke, yep21:11
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sandy_lockeyeah modular designs are good21:11
rcgtests are should be completely disjoint from the product source code21:11
sandy_lockeyeah of course, all of it make sense now21:12
sandy_lockethank you sensei ;)21:12
rcgnp :)21:12
rcgi like tdd and it's kinda a passion to me since i discovered it21:12
rcgjust makes things so much better :)21:13
sandy_lockeno I have to figure a way to use this technic in my next project21:13
sonojust start by writing a test.21:13
rcgthat's the way, learning by doing21:13
rcgsono, +121:13
sandy_lockeI figure you have to think about the structure including your testing scripts before hand ?21:14
rcgsandy_locke, try to force yourself to write a test first21:14
rcgsandy_locke, that's what unit testing frameworks, like junit etc. are for21:14
rcgqt also has some tools built in for testing and automation21:14
sonoor cppunit or qtestlib21:15
rcgimho, the easiest step into tdd is with java+eclipse+junit21:15
rcgand as sono mentioned there are also frameworks for c++ and qt21:15
rcgyep, python has also cool testing features :)21:16
sandy_lockercg, for me it will be jsUnity (just found it) because although I work with an eclipse like frontend, I use javascript (and derivated) for my apps21:18
sandy_lockeI don't work with java, and don't know it21:18
rcgsandy_locke, sure, what ever you work with :)21:18
rcgas you see, there are testing frameworks for all popular languages21:19
sandy_lockercg, is it hard to understand setUp and tearDown methods ?21:19
rcgsandy_locke, nope21:19
rcgthose are just methods that are run before, respectively, after your test21:19
rcgand for the first, simple tests, you likely even don't need those21:20
sandy_lockeI'll put myself into it tomorrow then21:21
sonosandy_locke: javascript as in npm and grunt or javascript as in chrome and such21:22
sonosetup: instance = new object()21:22
sonoteardown is just to deallocate resources21:23
sonoif you're using GC21:23
sandy_lockesono, js more like npm and stuffs21:24
sonofeel free to take that over21:25
sonoor that21:25
sandy_lockewell, sono, I don't use npm, but my work focus on the same stuffs21:26
sonothere's plenty, i don't do javascript currently but i'm sure you can ask.21:26
sandy_lockeI use the Alloy framework21:26
rcgqwazix, btw. there are also languages like acl2 that have features for automated reasoning and even proofs built into the language.21:28
sonohmm alloy21:28
rcgqwazix, so in that case you could, for some scenarios, even really proof that f(x) is correct21:28
sonoprobably not going to need it tho21:29
sonoalways interesting21:29
qwazixrcg, wow, that sounds cool21:29
sandy_lockesono, ?21:29
sononevermind me21:29
sandy_lockeok :)21:29
sandy_lockemmh, I'm using fontawesome in my new website21:30
qwazixfaenil, I'll edit the header some more, and we'll discuss it tomorrow. I know this keeps you back but it's the most complex control we must do it right.21:31
sandy_lockeqwazix, since the header tabs seem like their 'rolling' from the sides, couldn't we add a 'rolling' animation for the whole screen when switching tabs ?21:33
qwazixsandy_locke, it's a very nice way to do dpi independent monochrome icons21:34
sandy_lockeqwazix ^ yes, svg is the future, I tell you21:34
sandy_lockeI use it whenever I can21:34
qwazixsandy_locke, faenil is right that the buttonrow is not the best solution so there should be some more thought into that21:34
sandy_lockewhy ^21:35
qwazixthey tell me svg has performance issues in qt...21:35
sandy_lockebecause we can't see what's right and left ?21:35
qwazix(though even symbian used svg for icons since forever)21:35
sandy_lockein Qt I don't know (with wayland and opengl, are you sure ?) but with css and html they just work21:36
qwazixwe could of course use svg and if we see significant slowdowns convert to png21:36
sandy_lockeor meshes ?21:37
qwazixbecause a buttonRow is not a tab bar, and there is no clear indication that changing the button row will alter the controls below21:37
sandy_locke3D meshes ?21:37
sonoqwazix: prettiest web based code highlighting ever21:37
sandy_lockewhat's the difference between buttonRow and tabBar then, qwazix ?21:37
sandy_lockeqwazix, yes if we use opengl in nemo, we could use 3d meshes to display 2D21:38
sandy_lockeI did this in Lua some time ago21:38
qwazixthis could make it a bit more clear, but it doesn't work with the current implementation21:39
sandy_lockeok, so I see the difference21:39
sandy_lockeso what will buttonRow be used for ?21:39
sono Crayon Syntax Highlighter v2.4.121:40
qwazixsandy_locke, buttonRow is used to select one of many options. A tab bar is just a visual control, it tells the user that he'll only change views21:40
sonoeep it's php21:40
sonowhat happened, i just forgot the last 2 minutes21:40
qwazixsono, ??21:41
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sandy_lockeqwazix, why not use the breeze buttonRows then ?21:41
qwazixI prefer to not confuse the two themes21:43
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qwazixA scrollable view would be the simplest and most intuitive thing but it would have a problem with the speedbumps and the levels21:44
qwazixa paged view is doable but a bit overcomplicated, and, if you have many sliders or buttonRows, the user will have to take care where he swipes21:44
sandy_lockeqwazix, I realize: can you show me the actual buttonRow ? I don't find them ^^21:45
qwazixthe thing is, there is a good amount of space in the headerDock so this situation will be really rare, but we still have to find an acceptable solution21:46
sandy_lockeso the issue here is what ? the buttonRow itself, or the way pages are implemented ?21:47
sandy_locke(sorry, I'm a bit slow right now^^)21:48
qwazixthe issue here is that I used a buttonRow in the wrong way21:48
qwazixI used an option control to do a job of a visual control and this is not right.21:48
qwazixbut I think I have a better solution21:48
sandy_lockeqwazix, arf I still don't understand in what situation a buttonRow is relevant ? ^^21:52
qwazixcorrect ButtonRow usage is for example to choose a wallpaper scaling mode (clip, stretch, cover, fit, center, tile)21:53
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sandy_lockemmmh, all right !21:53
qwazixor to choose a text size for something between predefined options (small, medium, large)21:54
qwazixit changes an option21:54
qwazix a tab bar does not change an option, it just shows a different part of the ui21:54
sandy_lockeqwazix, how can it be triggered ? like taping on an image, or on a option icon ?21:57
qwazixthe buttonrow?22:00
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sandy_lockeqwazix, could sth like this be useful : ?22:12
qwazixthe buttonrow is triggered by tapping on one of the options22:12
sandy_lockebit ugly, but the principle is : you tap on an element and buttons pop to let you choose options22:12
qwazixyes that could work too, but it requires one more tap. It is good for very space-constrained environments22:13
qwazix(like select/dropdown boxes)22:13
sandy_lockeqwazix, you mean it's good to let the buttonRow in place so that user can switch between options easily ?22:14
sandy_lockewhat is your new solution? you have a mockup ?22:15
qwazixno it's completely different, I'll have mockup in a few minutes22:19
sandy_lockeok, sauce once done ;)22:19
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sandy_lockeqwazix, ok so now buttonRows are scrollable vertically and levels snap to the bottom of the component view, is that it ?22:33
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sandy_lockeI thought you wanted to redo the buttonRow system completely ^^ but like that it's nice, it always annoys me when controls are half-way offscreen and on screen22:35
qwazixI think you still have the buttonRow confused with something else22:35
sandy_lockeso what has change between the new and the old ?22:36
qwazixok, let's take it from the beginning22:36
sandy_lockeright, maybe I'll understand this time ^^22:37
qwazixOur initial issue is: what to do if the developer wants to put more controls in the dock than available space22:37
sandy_lockeok that I understood22:37
qwazixthe buttonRow is the control which has the long grey rectangle with the blue rectangle on top. The option with the blue rectangle is the one selected.22:39
sandy_lockeok that I understood too22:39
qwazixSo, I thought, let's put a buttonRow at the top of the dock, and when the end-user clicks on one option, the controls below will change accordingly, more like tabs22:39
qwazix(like on MS software where you click on ribbon tabs and the controls of the whole ribbon change)22:40
sandy_lockeok, but it's a mix between tab and button then22:40
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qwazixyes, and it might be confusing, we shouldn't do that mix22:41
qwazixso after faenil pointed that out, I decided to ditch that idea22:41
qwazixthis doesn't mean that we don't want buttonRows in the dock22:41
qwazixwe just want them to be real rows of buttons, that do things (for example in the latest pdf, change the aspect of images)22:42
qwazixso the difference of the new solution is that it deals with extra controls with scrolling, instead of the user having to click somewhere to reveal a new set of controls22:43
qwazixnow he can scroll up and down and reveal new groups (which we call levels) of controls22:43
qwazix(each level is the controls between dotted lines)22:43
sandy_lockebut then, there must be controls that are unnecessary with the selected button in buttonrow, no ?22:44
qwazixthe whole idea behind the levels, is that the dock can be partially closed, so that only one or two (or more) levels are visible22:44
sandy_lockelike that22:44
qwazixif there are such controls the developer of each app should disable them22:45
sandy_lockeand enable them when the relevant button is selected ?22:45
qwazixyes, but this in not certain at all. In my example, changing the image aspect does not affect either font, color or alignment22:45
sandy_lockeyes of course22:46
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sandy_lockemaybe you can stipulate that if there are new controls for a selected button, they should appear *just below* the buttonRow ?22:47
sandy_locketo not confuse the user22:47
qwazixfaenil, when you're back
sandy_lockethey know that new options are always just under the button they pressed22:47
qwazixsandy_locke, yes that can be part of the guidelines, though I would prefer enabled/disabled rather than appearing/disappearing controls22:48
qwazixofc this some times is not very good as it eats too much space, but generally the dock isn't the best place for dynamically showing controls22:49
qwazixa settings page would be better for that.22:49
sandy_lockeyes of course22:49
qwazixThe dock is for controls that are used while working, and those shouldn't change too often, to help muscle memory22:49
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sandy_lockespeaking of which, shouldn't we add a special settings panel for apps (a bit like ios) but where this is the *only* place where one can find the settings for the apps ?22:50
sandy_lockeso that apps do not have settings panels inside, but in centralized place ?22:51
sandy_lockealways dreamed of that22:51
sandy_lockefor persistant settings of course, those that you do not change often22:52
sandy_lockeI'm for banishing the settings panel inside apps ;)22:52
sandy_lockeon those kind words, I'm gonna leave you22:55
sandy_lockereading time before sleep22:55
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qwazixfaenil, if you opened the pdf please download again22:56
qwazixjust fixed something22:57
Hurrianohai qwazix23:00
qwazixhi Hurrian23:07
Hurrianso, what's happened since I went MIA? :P23:07
qwazixgood stuff, thousands of lines of scrollback :)23:08
qwazixseen faenil's video?23:08
Hurrianthe Glacier buttons?23:08
Hurrianthey look great!23:09
qwazixwe also have an almost working slider23:10
qwazixand Glacier styled maliit. Today we were brainstorming on cursor control for maliit too23:11
qwazix and
qwazixalso we are struggling a bit with the header, but I think we've almost nailed it23:11
Hurrianyep, was talking to faenil about that a few days ago - what's the solution you guys came to?23:12
qwazixsee the last page23:12
qwazix(there are changes in the other pages too)23:12
Hurrianqwazix: that's a mouse cursor control for maliit? that's something nicely new.23:13
qwazixyep, I wanted to have something to nudge the cursor left and right, either arrows, or like BB10 magnifier, and we came up with a thinkpad style trackpoint23:14
qwazixif you start a swipe from the trackpoint you can move the cursor around23:14
qwazix(or that's the idea, no implementation yet)23:14
HurrianI'm guessing swiping left and right on the keyboard's reserved to "switch IME"?23:15
HurrianI think the nipple mouse in the middle of the KB looks more balanced, though.23:16
qwazixwe've not decided on that yet (it can be like harmattan, swipe from outside) but even if it's like that, you can swipe from anywhere except the trackpoint for that23:16
qwazixyep, that is much better, and it allows up and down too23:16
qwazixI just linked to the first which is a gif just to showcase how it should work23:17
qwazixor we could reserve swiping on space for "switch ime" like some android keyboards (samsung?)23:18
qwazixand leave the rest of the keyboard for other swipes (delete word, tab, etc)23:18
Hurriannah, too much swipe controls gets confusing23:20
qwazixanother idea, pressing and holding on the appswitcher grabs a window, and highlights half of the screen (like windows aero snap). Dropping on the top half creates a top half window, and respectively for the bottom.23:21
qwazixswipe from outside to dismiss the app23:22
Hurriandoes swiping on the outside dismiss one app, or two?23:22
Hurrianand then the other fills the space?23:22
qwazixno, the space is filled with the switcher, so that you can choose another app to place there23:23
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qwazix(or something) I've not given it much thought yet, just brainstorming23:23
Hurrianfitting the switcher into half the screen doesn't look too practical23:24
Hurrianit'd be nice if the app that remains stretches to fit the remaining screen space23:24
qwazixthis can be so too, but there needs to be a way to fill the second half of the screen anyway23:24
qwazixLet's say user drops an app to the top half23:25
qwazixthe bottom half should display, if not the switcher, a grid of icons of open apps23:25
qwazix(or shrink the switcher, fade the thumbnails out and just keep the icons)23:26
qwazixso that the user can choose the second app23:26
Hurriansounds good enough.23:26
qwazixsecond app can be chosen with a tap, no need to hold and drag23:26
qwazixso when dismissing, we can either fill the space with the one app or display that chooser again23:27
qwazixwhen the chooser is visible, there can be an arrow just outside the open app that makes it fullscreen23:28
faenilwow, just finished reading backlog23:33
Hurrianohai faenil!23:33
qwazixfaenil, lol23:33
faenilhey Hurrian23:33
faenilinteresting talk about testing :)23:33
* qwazix ponders having e-speak recite the irc log for him while at work23:37
qwazixI doubt I'll understand anything thoug23:37
faenilqwazix, "The view snaps in a way that the bottom is always a level boundary."23:38
faenilso you want both top and bottom to be at level boundary, tell me how to achieve that, without resizing the header xD23:38
qwazixnot clear?23:38
qwazixsorry I was scrolled one line up23:38
qwazixnot both23:38
qwazixonly bottom23:38
qwazix"The bottom level cannot be clipped halfway (the top one can). "23:39
faenilbut the picture showed a perfectly aligned top23:39
qwazixyeah, that was by chance, let me change it23:39
faenilI imagine this means blocking the header while the inner view is scrolling?23:41
qwazixif you mean if somebody scrolls fast enough and before scrolling ends tries to resize the header, yes23:42
faenilyes, well it's not difficult and unlikely to happen23:43
faenilit's actually quite likely to happen23:43
faeniland when you see you can't close the header, you get upset :D23:43
qwazixI'm not sure because of snapping, momentum will last up to the next boundary23:44
qwazixit's not like it's gonna scroll like the contacts list, we need high friction there, almost like the homepage23:44
faenilqwazix, so, in landscape you say levels are columns23:48
qwazixfaenil, yes, if the developer has bothered23:49
faenilwith what23:49
qwazixrearranging his levels to columns23:49
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qwazix(which might be impossible)23:50
faenilbut no snapping23:50
qwazixwhen levels are columns snapping works just the same23:51
faenilyou mean23:51
faenil| | | |23:51
faenillike that ^23:51
qwazixfaenil, ignore the clipped thing I just missed to delete it23:52
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faenilqwazix, I don't understand how I'm supposed to know if I have to do snapping or not on landscape23:52
qwazixsee page 523:53
qwazixif levels have a width, then you use that width to do snapping23:53
qwazix(and you ignore the height completely)23:54
qwazixif levels do not have a width, you don't do snapping, and the levels are still rows just like they were in portrait23:54
faenilwhy shouldn't they have a width23:55
qwazixI just used width and height as a way to recognize if the developer has designed his levels for both orientations. It might be clearer to create a special property for that23:57
qwazixon portrait, width does not have a meaning (it's always screen.width)23:58
qwazixrespectively for height in landscape23:58
faenilqwazix, also, it seems like you didn't use long text on purpose in the landscape example23:58
faeniltry using "bye" and "doublelongsword"23:58
faeniland see how nice buttonrow becomes23:59
qwazixexactly why I said might be impossible to create column levels. In that case, the dev will not set width on his levels, and we will display them just like we did in portrait i.e. page423:59

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