Wednesday, 2013-11-27

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sledgesgood jollning08:33
stephghappy jolla-day (to me)08:34
locusfgood morning :)08:37
stephghow are we all today? excited?08:38
locusfyeah definately :)08:39
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fk_lxwe are excited :-)08:40
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ZogG_laptopfk_lx: are you?08:47
ZogG_laptop:P08:47
ZogG_laptopfk_lx: are you comming to the party?08:47
* fk_lx must admit that he is so excited and happy, that even single tears appeared in his eyes08:47
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fk_lxZogG_laptop: well I will be there at the square before Kamppi08:49
* jussi throws tomatoes at sledges08:51
* stephg wonders why tomatoes08:53
jussistephg: because they happened to be handy, and are squishy :D08:53
* DocScrutinizer05 watches/listens to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzdTLy5yqOQ&noredirect=1 and hums along the melody08:54
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locusfhttps://mobile.twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/405617889786335233?screen_name=JollaHQ08:55
locusfnot half bad :)08:55
stephgwoo08:55
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rahwtf is "jolladay"?09:00
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stephgtoday!09:02
iekkurah, wrong channel, but customers gets first jolla devices to their hands today09:03
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rahiekku: I see09:03
sledgesitalian joke especially for you Jussi: two tomatoes cossing the street. one says 'watch out' <splash> 'what?' <splash>09:05
jussiheh09:05
sledges;) sounds better in orig and unwritten09:05
rahiekku: do we know now which parts of the phone's software are proprietary?09:09
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stephgrah: bits of the UX and (some?) of the hardware adaptation (i.e. device drivers)09:11
rahstephg: what are your sources for this informationa?09:15
rahs/tiona/tion/09:15
stephgcheck out sailfishos.org09:20
stephghttps://sailfishos.org/about-architecture.html#09:20
stephgspecifically09:20
rahstephg: that doesn't say anything about which parts are proprietary09:21
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stephgbits of bits with a 'jolla' next to them are all, or in part, currently closed09:22
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rahstephg: err.. what are your sources for that information? :-)09:22
rahstephg: the page doesn't say anything like that09:22
rahI mean, it's something you could assume but then it's just an assumption09:23
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rahplus, if it is everything with 'jolla' next to is that that means all the useful bits of sailfish will be proprietary09:26
rahs/that that/then that/09:26
Stskeepsthe UI is -currently- closed; hardware adaptation is always a bitch and will include closed bits on any ARM device09:27
rahand I can't imagine Jolla would be going around advertising their phone as "truly open" if all the useful bits are proprietary09:27
rahnot unless they're particularly evil09:27
rahStskeeps: what do you mean by "the UI"?09:28
Stskeepssailfish os = sailfish ui + nemo middleware + mer core + hw adaptation09:28
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rahStskeeps: well, what you're saying contradicts stephg; the architecture diagram that stephg linked to has a 'jolla' next to the middleware section09:30
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rahStskeeps: and I have to ask: how do you know that "the UI" is -currently- closed?09:30
stephganything Stskeeps says will be truer than what I say, but it doesn't particularly09:30
rahStskeeps: what is your source for that information?09:30
Stskeepsrah: i'm chief research engineer at jolla..09:30
stephgI said "bits of bits" ;)09:30
Stskeeps:P09:30
rahStskeeps: I see09:31
Stskeepsthings can always change09:31
rahStskeeps: so what do you mean by "the UI"?09:31
Stskeepshomescreen, ui components, applications, artwork09:31
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rahdafuq?09:32
Stskeepsbut everything under is open09:32
rahand your marketroids are calling the phone "truly open"?09:32
faenilo/09:32
* faenil feels a discussion about UI code going on09:32
rahStskeeps: which applications?09:33
stephgyikes I'm late for work09:38
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rahthe silence speaks volumes :-/09:38
Stskeepsrah: it all comes down to what you feel the phone. try it out, see what you can accept, what you can't; some people won't accept a phone with any blobs. i'm happy that i can get full control of my device, even remove applications that i don't want. if you want a truly open UI, contribute to glacier09:40
DocScrutinizer05I hardly can accwept maemo09:40
DocScrutinizer05and we have some real fun RE'ing the closed blobs in it09:40
DocScrutinizer05funny how mer once been the "open alternative" to maemo09:41
rahStskeeps: I'll try your phone out *after* "the UI" is released as free software09:41
Stskeepsrah: that's your choice09:42
rahO_o09:42
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DocScrutinizer05meego claimed to get more open than maemo but in the end been a crippled abomination riddled by a braindamaged DRM all over the place09:43
faenilDocScrutinizer05, mer *is* open09:43
DocScrutinizer05now sailfish is what? more open still than meego?09:43
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DocScrutinizer05faenil: to me it sounds you made it open by downsizing09:44
locusfmer used to be full gui faenil09:44
faenilah ok sorry didn't know09:44
DocScrutinizer05exactly09:44
locusfback in n810 days09:44
locusfand n80009:44
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faenilDocScrutinizer05, Nemo is open top to bottom09:45
faeniland what? very low contributions09:45
faenilwhere are all the opensource fans09:45
DocScrutinizer05aaah, ok09:45
faenilwhen it comes the time of building something together?09:45
DocScrutinizer05so Nemo is which part of the system?09:45
faenilDocScrutinizer05, Nemo is a distro09:45
faenilMer core + Nemo MW + Glacier UI09:45
DocScrutinizer05and which device drivers?09:45
faenilDocScrutinizer05, well, it depends on the device you run it on09:46
faenilrah, did you know Nemo was open top to bottom?09:46
DocScrutinizer05honestly, I think you guys have a severe communications probem. Nobody dull as me understands the differences any more09:47
rahfaenil: yes09:47
faenilrah, and where was your opensource soul during that time? :)09:47
rahfaenil: I don't understand what you mean; which time are you talking about?09:48
rah(also, I don't really care about "open source", my concern is with user freedom, which is referred to as "free software")09:48
faenilrah, so you should yet more appreciate sailfish choices09:48
faenilokay they didn't manage to *expose* the whole sourcecode at the moment09:49
rahfaenil: choice does not mean freedom09:49
faenilBUT09:49
faenilthe *fully* open sailfish is trying to give as a message09:49
faenilis something you can be part of, the do it together09:49
faenilin fact09:49
faenilNemo and Mer are parts of sailfish09:49
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rahfaenil: "freedom", in the context of software refers to the four freedoms defined by the Free Software Definition: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html09:50
faeniland sailfish is not using forks or any stuff like that09:50
faenilrah, *fully* open as in you *can* contribute09:50
faenilit's not just free code09:50
faenilrah, it's not android where you have codedrops and you can't contribute in any way09:50
faenilit's really a way to be able to do things together09:51
rahfaenil: I'm not interested in companies who try to redefine terms like "open"09:51
rahfaenil: give me the source code or fuck off :-)09:51
faenilrah, ah so now open is just opensource? ;)09:51
rahfaenil: yes, open is just open source09:51
faenilrah, then sailfish is more than that :)09:52
faenilnot just opensource, you can actually make a difference yourself09:52
DocScrutinizer05for sure open is NOT "you may write code for our JS interpreter"09:52
rahfaenil: I disagree; I would say sailfish is less than that09:52
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rahfaenil: you've been brainwashed09:52
faenilrah, the UI part is not released, so it's useless to discuss about that09:52
faenilrah, I've not been brainwashed, please don't come to such conclusions without knowing me09:53
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rahfaenil: a company has sold you on their concept of "open", which means: the ability ito influcence that company's activity in producing proprietary products09:53
zbenjaminfaenil: is there any informations on what parts of sailfish will be released?09:53
rahfaenil: they're denying you freedom09:53
faenilzbenjamin, I don't know09:53
faenilrah, can you rephrase last one?09:53
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rahfaenil: not really09:54
faenilrah, well, I didn't get it, please write in a different way if you want me to understand :D09:54
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locusfI just learned about freedom in free software myself so this is an intriguing discussion :)09:54
rahfaenil: the company is denying you the four freedoms that free software respects in its users09:54
tanukIf Sailfish contains closed bits, calling it "fully open" is misleading.09:54
faeniltanuk, of course, we all agree about that ;)09:55
tanukI don't know what else there is to argue about.09:55
zbenjamini also hoped for the ui part to be released09:55
rahStskeeps: we all agree that your marketroids are lying09:55
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faeniltanuk, we're not arguing, I'm just trying to explain rah (since he's not been active part of this community)09:56
Stskeepsrah: where have we said our system is fully open?09:56
faenilthat it's not only opensource, but you can actually also contribute actively to it09:56
rahI am inexplicable09:56
Stskeepsi'm googling "fully open" and jolla atm09:56
rahStskeeps: you haven't, I'm conflating "fully open" with "truly open"09:56
jussi"Jolla is powered by Sailfish OS, a truly open and distinct mobile operating system. "09:57
Stskeepsalso, open means different things to different people09:57
Stskeepsi hate the word 'open', to be honest09:57
jussiI guess you can claim the OS itself is truly open09:57
Stskeepsas an example "Open Handset Alliance"09:57
fk_lxopen is sometimes overused in different contexts09:58
rahlike, for example, the context of Jolla's marketing09:58
Stskeepsdevel-su, bash#09:58
Stskeeps:P09:58
Stskeepsopen09:58
Stskeepshello09:58
fk_lxrah: I disagree, for me Jolla is the open phone09:58
alteregoI openned a door this morning.09:58
rahfk_lx: I pity you09:58
fk_lxrah: UI is not everything, and even then you can run Nemo on Jolla which has Glacier UI that is open09:59
rahfk_lx: you're worth more than the way Jolla is treating you09:59
rahfk_lx: I'm sorry you don't see that09:59
fk_lxrah: Jolla is treating me good09:59
locusfits all or nothing to the feee software guys10:00
faenilrah, out of curiosity, without considering the core apps (and sailfish UI special features), how is sailfish not open?10:00
locusf*free10:00
DocScrutinizer05GOD, on N900 I can run debian10:01
faenilDocScrutinizer05, did somebody deny you to do the same on jolla? :)10:01
DocScrutinizer05which has... everything10:01
DocScrutinizer05meh, good luck10:02
faenilrah, seriously, I'm genuinely interested10:02
faenilI'm not playing the fan boy here10:02
tanukDocScrutinizer05: Did you have some point with "on N900 I can run debian"?10:03
DocScrutinizer05jolla hasn't redefined the mobile phone but the way to market same old mindset10:03
alterego*sigh*10:03
DocScrutinizer05tanuk: maybe that N900 been more open than jolla ever will be?10:03
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tanukDocScrutinizer05: What's the difference? Are you somehow prevented from running Debian on Jolla?10:04
DocScrutinizer05meh, I'm not even inclined to continue this rant10:04
faenil...10:04
rahfaenil: if you define "sailfish", to mean "all of the bits of software that run on the Jolla phone that are open" (which seems to be what you've done in your question), then "sailfish" is open10:04
faenilrah, okay, good ;) yes that's what I meant, if core and middleware of Sailfish was also not open to you ;)10:05
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rahfaenil: but it's a pointless question; you've asked "which bits that are open, are not open?"10:06
alteregoThe middleware of sailfish is Nemo10:06
rahfaenil: if all bits are open then no bits are not open10:06
rahfaenil: it's a nonsense question10:06
faenilrah, it's not pointless as it seems, because *your* open could be different from middleware and core's current "open" status10:06
faenilso, I want to make sure the target you have in mind is the same one10:07
rahfaenil: in that case the question you're asking me is "what does 'open' mean to you?"10:07
rahfaenil: is that right?10:07
faenilrah, yes I asked you if those parts are "open" to you10:07
faenilor if even middleware and core is not *open* to you for whatever reason10:08
rahfaenil: in that case: I don't really have an idea about what the word "open" means because it's misused in so many absurd ways, like for example in Jolla's marketing material10:08
rahfaenil: so the answer to your question is: it means nothing to me10:09
vgraderah: \o , did you see my reply re Allwinner10:09
rahvgrade: I did, thank you10:09
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rahvgrade: I have a Pengpod 1000 and some A31 tablets and boxes, like an Mele A1000G10:10
locusfwe shojld discuss free as in feeedom instead of open10:10
rahvgrade: I've seen that there are instructions for rebuilding the images with the Mer SDK, which I'll attempt10:10
locusfwhich Sailfish isn't10:11
DocScrutinizer05ack10:11
vgraderah: you should be able to run on those10:11
rahvgrade: aye10:11
vgraderah: I'm working cubieboards, eoma68 and H6 netbook. Let me know if you have any probs10:13
faenilrah, okay, so you're saying that you don't know if you think core and middleware is open either10:14
rahfaenil: no, I'm saying I don't know what "open" means10:14
rahfaenil: I have a good idea about what is free software and what isn't10:14
faenilrah, *you* know what open is, right? *your* open, the one you're saying sailfish isn't10:14
rahfaenil: I don't have an open10:15
faenilrah, ok let's not use the word open10:15
faenilrah, does the current status of core and middleware of sailfish please you?10:15
faenilthat's less ambiguous maybe10:15
rahfaenil: ok, I lied, I don't have a good idea about what is free software and what isn't :-)10:15
faenil:)10:16
faenilthat's why my question was not pointless :)10:16
rahfaenil: looking at the architecture diagram here https://sailfishos.org/about-architecture.html and going by what Stskeeps has said, it would appear that much of "Sailfish" is non-free10:17
rahfaenil: but I'm not sure if the word "Sailfish" is intended to exclude the non-free Jolla parts of the architecture10:17
faenilrah, yeah because there UI and middleware are in the same block10:17
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faenilrah, no Sailfish is all of that10:17
rahfaenil: if Sailfish contains non-free parts then the status of Sailfish does not please me10:18
faenilbut my question was about sailfish middleware and core :)10:18
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rahfaenil: in fact, I can answer all questions about what pleases me this way: free software pleases me, non-free software does not please me10:19
faenilrah, and I'll go back to my quesiton, do you think core and middleware of sailfish are free software?10:19
rahfaenil: so, if Sailfish middleware and core are free software, they please me; if they contain non-free software then they do not please me10:19
faenilI'm asking you if you think they're free software10:19
rahfaenil: that's just a question about: what I know about Sailfish10:19
faenilit's important for you to know what you think about stuff before judging :P10:19
rahfaenil: I don't know10:19
DocScrutinizer05yummy sandwich, tasty middle in indigestible wrapper10:20
rahfaenil: do Sailfish middleware and core contain non-free parts?10:20
faenilrah, Mer and Nemo are free software imho10:20
rahfaenil: good for you10:21
faenilrah, and for you, since you like free software ;)10:21
stephgmer and nemo categorically are10:21
fk_lxof course mer and nemo is free software10:21
faenilgot to go, but to helsinki leaving soon, cya people10:22
stephgwoo10:22
faenilrah, we may continue another time :)10:22
stephghave fun10:22
faenilsure!10:22
DocScrutinizer05you probably should publish a dictionary, for looking up all the new meanings you created for known words10:22
faenilDocScrutinizer05, me? :)10:23
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DocScrutinizer05whoever thinks his point of view about all thatjolla/sailfish/nemo dungeon was something you could sell to the world as the latest hottest shit10:24
faenillol10:24
faenilbbl10:24
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rahwe may continue another time10:27
rahbuuuuuut... we may not10:27
DocScrutinizer05[2013-11-27 10:45:41] <faenil> DocScrutinizer05, Nemo is a distro  [2013-11-27 10:49:53] <faenil> Nemo and Mer are parts of sailfish10:29
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fk_lxDocScrutinizer05: Sailfish is based on Nemo, just like Kubuntu is based on Ubuntu10:30
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DocScrutinizer05rather like homematic system is based on debian10:37
DocScrutinizer05or tivo10:37
DocScrutinizer05or macOS is based on unix?10:38
jussiyes, kinda..'10:39
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DocScrutinizer05well, "Jolla is powered by Sailfish OS, a truly open and distinct mobile operating system. "  is pretty misguiding then10:44
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DocScrutinizer05probably the creative use of words starts with "is powered by"10:49
sledgeshttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWjRqprCYAAH9QV.jpg:large10:51
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, nemo seems nice, unless raped by sailfish10:54
sledgessailfish has a long sword nose..10:54
DocScrutinizer05can do severe harm to a little clownfish10:55
stephgs/raped/protected/10:55
stephg(imo)10:56
DocScrutinizer05yeah, like unix is protected by macOS10:56
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stephgnot a legitimate comparison10:57
stephgseveral of maintainers of mer are jolla employees remember10:57
DocScrutinizer05btw protected from what exactly?10:57
DocScrutinizer05from the threat called user?10:58
stephgc.f. kernel devs being employees of Canonical or RedHat10:58
stephgI'm just saying I think you have it up-side-down10:58
stephgsailfish is not 'aggressive' towards nemo10:58
stephginfact it's absolutely dependent on it10:58
DocScrutinizer05exploit was the better word10:59
stephgno, it's not10:59
sledgesDocScrutinizer05, as per logo, Nemo is not a fish (no need to finding it ;)): http://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg00808.html10:59
sledgeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nemo11:00
stephgDocScrutinizer05 in your opinion then, how have they 'exploited' it11:01
DocScrutinizer05oh, wasn't that a pretty weird character?11:01
sledgesit still is, but we are working on him :)11:02
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sledges"he is a scientific genius who roams the depths of the sea in his submarine, the Nautilus"11:02
sledges Nemo tries to project a stern, controlled confidence, but he is driven by a thirst for vengeance and a hatred of imperialism11:03
sledgesHe is also wracked by remorse over the deaths of his crew members and even by the deaths of enemy sailors.11:03
sledges:D11:03
sledgeswe had some nice brainstorms: https://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg00737.html11:05
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zbenjamincompiling Qt on Arch sucks :/ python and bison are both incompatible13:53
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sledges8)13:56
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zbenjaminis there no other rolling release distribution out there thats useable?13:59
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sledgesno pain no gain zbenjamin ;)14:00
zbenjaminpffft ;)14:01
sledgesSfiet_Konstantin is a Qt compiling freak ;)14:01
Sfiet_Konstantinsledges: no I'm not :O14:01
sledgesSfiet_Konstantin: don't make me grep the backlog :D14:01
Sfiet_Konstantin:D14:02
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm using fedora14:02
* zbenjamin tried to play with apitrace yesterday... but the ui thingy always crashes14:02
Sfiet_KonstantinI tried a mandriva derived (mageia)14:02
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Sfiet_Konstantinand used debian too14:02
zbenjaminhow is fedora these days?14:02
Sfiet_Konstantinall worked successfully in compiling Qt14:02
Sfiet_Konstantin5.0.X -> 5.2.X14:02
Sfiet_Konstantinzbenjamin: yum is slow14:02
Sfiet_Konstantinthat's all14:02
zbenjaminwell thats what you get for living near the edge when using Arch. Up 2 date packages... but most stuff is only compatible to ubuntu and breaks with the most recent releases14:03
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Sfiet_Konstantinzbenjamin: I used to have stuff fun with roling14:04
Sfiet_Konstantinand then I learnt the benefits of stability14:04
Sfiet_Konstantinso F19 for me14:04
Sfiet_Konstantinand only the backported KDE14:04
zbenjaminarch is pretty stable14:04
zbenjamindidn't break for me in the last year i think14:04
sledgesUbuntu rumoured to go rolling - just imagine how all Ubuntu-compatible SDKs would break (TI, Freescale, Peta, ..... :D)14:05
zbenjaminbut it of course messes things up when you compile your own libraries or apps, and one of the system libraries is updated to a version thats not backwards compatible14:05
* sledges has a vm for each, at work14:05
zbenjaminimho rolling is the way to go, all this reinstalling sucks...14:06
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sledgesyes, but that is a maintainer's nightmare (rpm still not fixed under arch..), and if a package is as big as an SDK..14:06
zbenjamini upgraded the last 2 ubuntu versions and it always broke14:06
sledgessystem upgrade never ever worked for me, always reinstall; that's why i switched to rolling, and keep stable ubuntus in VMs14:08
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zbenjaminhow open will the jollpa phone be?14:22
zbenjaminopen as in, easy to flash another firmware14:22
zbenjaminsorry for the use of "open" again14:22
zbenjaminand will drivers and stuff be available? like for googles nexus phones?14:23
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twobobanother day, another try16:21
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