Tuesday, 2014-06-24

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sledgesstephg: we're at #mer-meeting atm :)09:22
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stephgsledges thx, not at my desk much this morning09:38
sledgesnprobs :)09:42
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locusfI was out on town10:49
sledgesfor the nemoers is to decide the fate of bugs.nemomobile.org10:51
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SK_workah ?10:59
sledgesafter nemo->mer merge10:59
bencohso it happened eventually ?11:00
sledges09:17:54 <lbt> eleroux: I thought so but it's for nemo people to decide about glacier11:01
sledgesit's happening11:01
sledgessummary: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-06-24-08.44.html11:01
lbtthere is a bz at nemomobile.org11:01
lbtwhat do you guys want to do with it when nemo's mw moves to mer ?11:02
lbtwill nemomobile become glacier and move to a new domain?11:02
lbtwill you reset the bz?11:02
lbtdo you want to get rid of it and just have a space on Mer bz ?11:02
faenillbt, so, if it's not a problem of money, I'd leave Nemo's bz renaming it to glacier bz12:21
faenilwhile mw bugs etc will be moved to mer's bz12:21
lbtit's not a big deal money-wise - it's a small VM and shares the mer ldap12:22
faenilthen I suggest leaving the Nemo bz for the UI stuff :)12:31
faenilI vote*12:31
locusfI vote using github issues12:32
faenillocusf, for UI only?12:32
locusfwell why not the apps too? They have their repos open12:32
faenilyeah, gui12:33
faenilwell, could make sense, let's see what the others think12:33
faenilqwazix, Morpog, sandy_locke, etc12:34
faenil(who am I forgetting?)12:34
tbrso you're dropping nemo completely and instead continuing as glacier?12:35
locusfif nemo becomes mer then it makes sense12:36
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tbrso in the end jolla did kill Mer after all. At least I'm surprised.12:40
locusfthere 138 people here so lets hear all of them :) ?12:40
tbrlbt: FTFY > so in the end jolla did kill Nemo after all. At least I'm surprised.12:41
lbtjolla didn't kill nemo - mer absorbed the MW when very few other projects wanted alternative MW on Mer12:41
lbtpersonally I think this gives Nemo a better base to workon12:42
lbtas it doesn't have to handle the MW integration and can focus on UI and a smaller top layer12:42
tbrlbt: well the topic was pushed as "Nemo should be folded into Mer" by Jolla. conveniently ignoring that they meant MW and thus ignoring its community.12:43
lbtalso makes Mer more 'complete' by having more service integration and a better one-stop install for, eg, ofono/accountsd based headless/web systems12:43
lbtmeh - bad wording12:44
tbr_repeatedly_ although people pointed it out and the initial mentions got already people rubbed the wrong way12:44
lbtand tbh the discussion should not have been in a sailfish meeting12:44
lbtwhen's the next nemo meeting btw? :D12:44
tbrjust saying, I'm not surprised that now the nemo people want to walk away from Nemo and roll under the glacier name12:44
* tbr does not feed trolls12:45
lbterm .. ok12:45
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* lbt thinks people need to remember that interpretation happens after reading words, not before writing them12:46
lbtand it's not lossless12:46
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* faenil reads backlog12:47
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lbtbut if you choose to assume without any CRC then that's your issue :)12:47
SK_workfaenil: -1 for bz for issues: bz is tedious to use since we have github12:48
lbtpersonally I saw the mer/nemo merge thing as a way for Mer to help the nemo community - but if that's not how it was seen then OK12:48
SK_workdidn't read backlogs yet12:48
tbrlbt: the _form_ was lacking, a lot.12:48
lbttbr: the problem is that many of us don't change our hats - we are simultaneous members of multiple communities12:49
lbtand we don't differentiate - we're looking to optimise for all12:49
tbrI struggle to find the right wording as it's a mine field left behind by other events. But there was a LOT of valid criticism and much did not change.12:49
tbrand the hat thing is just ridiculous, it does not work.12:50
lbtso when I discuss mer/nemo in Fosdem near a sailfish meeting wearing a jolla shirt ... who am I?12:50
tbrit's like saying I have a different set of ethics at work and at home12:50
lbtmany people do12:50
tbrdoes wearing a jolla shirt make me a jolla employee?12:50
lbtit kinda does for me12:50
tbrhint: it's been proven impossible to have two sets of ethics12:51
lbtnb ... you mentioned "by Jolla"12:52
lbtI hate that phrase12:52
lbtthere is no disembodied jolla12:53
lbtit typically *does* lead to multiple ethics ... what would jolla do?12:53
lbt!= what should I do?12:53
Merbotlbt: Error: "=" is not a valid command.12:53
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tbrthere is Jolla the company, and people perceive it as an entity, despite the valiant efforts of jolla to dissociate itself from all its employees in all public matters12:54
tbrbtw: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-60Uu1n7gho4/UvoDKzRYT2I/AAAAAAAADAU/W39ZVEddGIY/w1024-h768-no/rK5_IMGP4585_3.jpg12:54
lbtit's not an entity  - common fallacy12:54
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lbtand actually that's part of the problem - people rail against the machine ... but there isn't one!12:55
tbrA corporation is a separate legal entity that has been incorporated either directly through legislation or through a registration process established by law.12:55
lbtthat's a legal construct12:55
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tbryou should know better than to argue this point with me, as e.g. you know very well how nearly impossible it was to get a statement of support for Chum, due to the whole "there are only sailors" bullcrap12:56
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lbtIMO that was different - you're asking there for Jolla's consensus opinion/policy12:58
lbtthis is you saying Jolla *has* a policy on Nemo ...  but .... e.g. you know very well how nearly impossible it was to get a statement of support for Chum, due to the whole "there are only sailors" bullcrap ... so what makes you think there is one for Nemo/Mer ?12:58
lbtnb tbr I'm really trying just to talk about it here12:59
lbtand explain my perspective12:59
lbtnot have a fight or anything12:59
tbryes, and I'm trying to get it across, that this whole scheme drives people away13:00
tbrjolla is like this swarm of fish, once here once there, but if you try to touch it, it just disappears into the sea as a million individual fish13:01
lbtsome clarification ... what do you mean by scheme ?13:01
lbtalso I think that's not an unreasonable picture of Jolla (the fish)13:02
lbtthe fish individually do what they can - but they tend not to act as a whole13:02
tbrwhat I mean is, that Jolla seems to think that it can extend its internal way of behaviour and working beyond the boundaries of itself13:02
lbtalternatively we've tried to bring the community way of working into our jobs13:03
lbtjolla does not think13:03
lbtjolla does not exist13:03
lbtjolla would fail even the Daily Mail's Turing test!13:03
tbrwell, the US jurisdiction on corporate persons (sic!) disagrees, but I digress13:04
lbthah - proof of the Turing bit though :D13:04
tbrif jolla does not exist, then I can make decisions about sailfish as I'm as much an individual as any sailor13:05
lbtI was typing : you're kinda right - jolla does exists through policy - but my point is it has a very loose policy13:05
lbtone policy controls jolla-owned code - internal sailors only13:06
lbtso that explains that13:06
tbrI'm sorry, but you're chasing a dream, an ideal. The sad truth is, that Jolla is as much a corporation as Nokia. I've seen it again and again who Nokias bad behavioural patterns are replicated by sailors.13:06
lbtoh, I don't disagree13:06
tbrthen this whole discussion is moot13:06
lbtJolla will have it's flaws as an organisation13:06
lbtwell, no13:06
tbryou can't have the corporate cake and disclaim that it doesn't exist13:07
lbtthen listen to what I say :)13:07
lbtJolla has no individual existence as a thinking being13:07
artemmaIn theory tbr can make any decisions abt Sailfish OS direction as any other individual. In practice it is limited by copyright on some code parts and by financing of the developer time13:08
tbrartemma: I can't roll a release. I can't cancel or approve a feature.13:08
lbtI'd argue that jolla only communicates via policy agreed by sailors13:08
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lbtand that we can all influence that policy13:08
artemmaand by coherent focus too probably as I guess it's way more motivating to work towards some common grande goal rather then just do a small adjustment here and there13:08
tbrI'd argue that Jolla seldomly communicates, ever13:09
lbtI'd argue that's a good thing13:09
artemmatbr: you sure can roll a release of the open parts. That is called nemo though :)13:09
lbtcorporates tend to be twats13:09
tbrartemma: you just proved my point13:09
artemmayeah, no arguing here :)13:09
lbtI really don't like what most corporates end up agreeing as a consensus of their employees - it's despicable13:09
artemmaI am just not sure it is bad for me as the end user and end developer.13:10
lbtasking a sociopath to join your community is nuts ...13:10
* artemma doesn't mind coherent focus enforced by a cruel CEO if it produces great coherent results13:10
artemmanot sure if I'd have fun working there though :)13:10
tbrlbt: in a way I find it much harder to work with an ethereal Jolla, than with Nokia; community wise.13:11
artemmathough many Apple employees seemed to enjoy it according to the rumors13:11
lbttbr: OK - I can accept that13:11
lbttbr: but my point is - is that a bad thing ... isn't it better to try live without a corporate in the open area?13:12
lbtI don't really want this big unchanging, semi-anonymous corporate character telling us what to do13:12
lbtlook at Intel in MeeGo13:13
tbrlbt: the problem is that there is the duality of things. The corporate shows up all the time. Makes intransparent internal decisions. Folds Nemo MW into Mer, announces it on the _sailfish_ ML, etc.13:13
lbtfolding Nemo into Mer was something Carsten and I discussed (with others) as a proposal13:13
tbrand that's what I find highly unfair. Jolla reserves the right to be intangible and claims it doesn't exist. While all the time inflicting things on its community.13:13
* artemma recalls from his corporate times: it was always way more clear and easy when there was a strong leader voice in a particular area. Even if such a leader had to follow some higher decisions he didn't like13:13
lbttbr: woah13:14
lbtyou're saying "Carsten and I" is Jolla ?13:14
tbrthat's what it boils down to13:14
tbrlbt: by your point, anyone is jolla, to use your argument against yourself.13:14
lbtwhat this comes back to is Mer people not communicating well13:14
lbtno, I never said that13:14
* artemma thinks stskeeps is quite a big part of what Jolla is. In his particular area13:14
tbrok, sorry, no, but just no.13:14
lbt"anyone is jolla" ???13:14
lbtartemma: that's an issue for him - and it was what I meant about hats13:15
tbrFor the record, I agree that we disagree, highly.13:15
lbttbr: don't let me make you say that13:15
lbtthere's just a misunderstanding13:15
lbtlets find it13:15
qwazixfaenil, pong13:15
artemmait's a pity, because I do like his voice a lot. Don't always agree with the priorities, but stskeeps tends to be pretty clear about the priorities and directions13:16
lbt"anyone is jolla" ??? - where did you think I meant that?13:16
faenilqwazix, hey o/13:16
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faenilqwazix, read the few lines above my ping to you ;)13:16
qwazixyep, doing so now13:17
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qwazixbtw, I don't think we should go with naming the distro Glacier13:17
qwazixit's the theme's name, just like Android's Holo and WP's metro13:18
tbrlbt: we can have a philosophical discussion another day. Right now I'm heading out as the weather finally is a bit better.13:18
sledgesand breeze13:18
qwazixnot to mention that now it becomes clearer what nemo is13:19
lbttbr: OK - please lets do that - maybe at devaamo13:19
* artemma actually hopes there will be more voices such as stskeeps in the other areas. Like for design approach or sharing or messaging. Aard seems to emerge as such a voice for harbour if I am not mixing things13:19
qwazixmer is the base, nemo the distro with Glacier, apps and all13:19
tbrlbt: that would be in about 11 months13:19
lbttbr: :(13:19
tbrit's just not happening this year13:19
lbtyeah - OK13:19
tbrme not having a job does not help either13:19
lbttbr indeed13:19
lbtmoving conversation : no-one has said nemo should go. Just that the mw stuff fits into Mer's 'core' better nowadays13:20
* stephg comes back to desk and struggles through backlog13:20
lbtand personally I don't want to see Nemo go away - but I'd like to make it easier to do Nemo things13:20
faenilqwazix, agree, we shouldn't name it glacier13:21
lbtand by moving the non-differentiated stuff into Mer and using Jolla's resources that should help Nemo focus on the UI and such13:21
qwazixlbt, :nod:, I'm just against the idea of renaming to Glacier that tbr threw earlier13:21
qwazixlbt, I agree13:21
tbrqwazix: I did _NOT_ propose that13:22
qwazixtbr sorry, I was referring to this <tbr> [15:35:44] so you're dropping nemo completely and instead continuing as glacier?13:22
lbtqwazix: I'd quite like Nemo to just continue and release something called/using-the-word Glacier13:22
qwazixindeed NOT a proposal13:22
faenilpersonally, I don't see anything bad about the Nemo/Mer merge13:22
tbrqwazix: that was a summary of someone's statement13:22
qwazixah, didin't read enough backlog then13:23
faenilthere wasn't any request to keep them separated, so I don't see why it shouldn't happen, if it makes life easier for the people who actually use them13:23
tbrfaenil: technically it's sound and good. it's execution was...13:23
SK_workthat can be something tedious for those who are not prepared13:23
SK_workfaenil: what i see is infra change13:23
tbranyway, I'm out.13:23
faeniltbr, ok13:23
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faeniltbr, enjoy the sun! :D13:23
qwazixhurrian, o/13:23
lbttbr: good chat .. smile :)13:23
hurrianohai qwazix!13:23
* lbt afk for food13:24
faeniltbr, when you're back, where did you get the "dropping nemo completely and continue as GLacier" thing? :)13:24
qwazixwe're discussing about direction now that Nemo-MW folds into Mer13:24
qwazixfaenil, btw regarding issues, I certainly like GitHub issues more than BZ but having everything on a third-party service worries me13:25
faenilqwazix, well, now that nemo is merged, this decision is relevant :) without the merge it didn't make any sense13:25
hurrianqwazix, it's merged already?13:25
faenilhurrian, no, will be merged in the near future13:26
qwazixI think it's just been decided13:26
faenili.e. it takes time13:26
faenilqwazix, no, it was decided months ago13:26
qwazixah, ok13:26
SK_workthere were mails, but no much discussion sadly13:26
SK_workwell at least noone complained13:26
faenilyes, none complained13:27
SK_work(on mer ml)13:27
faenilso, now...shall we ;)13:27
hurrianso, it's basically extending what Mer provides as a reference implementation?13:27
SK_workwhat I'm seeing is just infra migration, that can be a headache13:27
qwazixwhy complain? I always thought that was a more sane approach13:27
SK_workhurrian: Mer getting many packages13:27
faenilqwazix, it seems everyone agrees on the merge ;) tbr only has something to say about how things were handled, on the formal side13:28
qwazixfaenil, :nod:13:28
faenilqwazix, hurrian btw, our decision atm is, do we want our own bugzilla for ui stuff, or do you want a section in mer's bz?13:28
faenilSK_work, ^ as well13:29
qwazixhow much effort is it to maintain a seperate bugzilla?13:29
hurrianI think UI should be parted off from the general bugzilla, as I'm sure we'll get loads and loads of feature enhancement requests.13:29
SK_workfaenil: personally, I prefer either mer bz, or github bz13:29
SK_work(github bugtracker)13:29
qwazixhurrian, +113:29
faenilhurrian, agree13:29
SK_workI would prefer something easy to use13:29
SK_workeasier than bz13:29
SK_workgithub is good, but 3rd party13:30
hurrianregular Mer BZ should be for the core, critical bugs13:30
SK_workgitlab ?13:30
qwazixSK_work, <3 gitlab13:30
faenilI wouldn't worry about the 3rd party at the moment13:30
hurrianand I think putting a sea of feature requests in it would be awful for both users and devs.13:30
SK_workdoes gitlab have bug support ?13:30
faenilwe barely have people working on UI13:30
stephgSK_work: any particular reason for the worry as to the 3rd-party-ness of github (or bitbucket or...)13:30
faeniland we're worrying about 3rd party services? srsly :D13:30
SK_workyou loose your bugs etc.13:30
SK_workstephg: what if it's down ? outrage etc.13:30
SK_workfaenil: yeah true13:31
hurriansomething easy like Jolla Together sounds nice13:31
qwazixfaenil, I fear shutdown more than anything else13:31
SK_workbut I think github is more pleasant to use for developers13:31
faenilno tjc for nemo bugs, pretty please :P13:31
SK_workfaenil: tjc like ? :D13:31
stephgSK_work outage aside you have no issues?13:31
faenilI've been fighting all morning against tjc as a bug reporting platform13:31
SK_workbut no tjc please13:31
SK_workstephg: not really13:31
locusfme neither with github13:32
SK_workmaybe too simple (ie not nice for dozen of bugs) but we don't have dozen of bugs13:32
faenilSK_work, is there anyone actually having issues with bz?13:32
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qwazixif we have a little machine doing git clones every night and copying the bug database (if possible) I don't have issues with 3rd party either13:32
SK_workfaenil: too complex13:32
SK_workjust far too complex, and not fast13:32
faenilqwazix, once a month is more than enough for us xD13:33
qwazixfaenil, even so13:33
SK_worknot about issues, but more about ... efficiency, bz is not efficient13:33
faenilSK_work, visiting every repo to see the issues is fast instead?13:33
SK_workgithub is more simple / efficient13:33
SK_workand you have your bugs when working on a repo13:33
SK_workfaenil: will we have many repos ? if we only work in ui side13:33
SK_workcomponents, homescreen, and a couple of apps ?13:33
faenilokay, I don't particularly like the fact that I don't have a main view of the bugs in the project13:33
faenilbut that's just me13:34
SK_workfaenil: ah13:34
SK_workI would +1 you for this13:34
qwazixgitlab has that view13:34
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faenilI mean, I really like a website which is only for that, bugs13:34
faenilqwazix, really? cool13:34
SK_workit might be important13:34
SK_workfor "project manager" if Nemo have some (faenil ?)13:34
qwazixand a gitlab droplet on digitalocean can be set up in a minute13:34
SK_workI'm not against moving to mer gitlab actually13:34
faenilqwazix, setting what where? :D13:35
hurrianDigitalOcean <313:35
SK_workhave mirror on github in case of outrage13:35
SK_workthere is mer gitlab that is already setup :P13:35
qwazixfaenil, sorry scratch that, it shows all issues assigned to you on the general page13:35
artemmaoutrage :)13:35
faenilqwazix, okay13:35
faenilartemma, :D13:36
artemmanemo is a cruel business13:36
faenilso, let's vote13:36
faenillet's post to ml13:36
artemmaonly real tough people develop phone platform without a phone13:36
qwazixfaenil, latest version shows everyones issues too13:36
faenilwhere should I post?13:36
SK_workfaenil: maybe to mer ML ? (right now)13:37
SK_workshould we ask our own ML ?13:37
SK_workfaenil: I guess mer ML is empty enough for us to use ;)13:38
SK_workyou can add a prefix if you want ([nemo-ui])13:39
faenilthat's *exactly* what I did :D13:39
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SK_workfaenil: :)13:40
SK_workhope that we could have more discussions on mer ml after mer-nemo merging13:40
SK_work(like middleware discussion too ?)13:40
SK_workdon't know how this can go13:40
faenilI don't think we need our own ml, atm13:41
faenil(as long as mer people are okay with that)13:41
faenilSK_work, 2 days for the voting is okay I guess13:46
faenilor 1 week?13:47
faenilqwazix, ?13:47
stephg2 days is short13:47
faenil1 week?13:48
stephgooi, how many people are involved that don't hang out here much?13:48
faenilvery few13:48
stephgfaenil: 1 week seems reasonable to me13:48
SK_work2 days is short13:48
faenilI'm just posting to ML to avoid complains like "you didn't do things right, you should have posted that on ML" in the future13:48
SK_work1 week13:48
faenilif it were for me, I'd declare it done now already, lol13:48
SK_workfaenil: let's post more on ML acutally13:49
faenilall people who *actually* work on the UI have voted anyway :D13:49
faenil(ah, Morpog and sandy missing)13:49
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faenilmsg sent13:51
SK_workfaenil: msg not received :P13:52
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SK_workdon't worry13:54
SK_workfaenil: got it :)13:54
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stephgmael froem faenil raecaeived13:56
faenil(don't ask why I wrote that)13:57
stephgyour cat wrote it?13:57
faenilnope, no cats here :(13:57
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Morpog_Jolla_sup, got dome flaky connection here13:59
faenilMorpog_Jolla_, read email on mer-general ml ;)13:59
Morpog_Jolla_got me link to ml? on phone here14:00
SK_workfaenil: replied :)14:01
faenilI haven't received it yet...14:01
faenilwonder what happened to my ml subscription14:01
SK_workMorpog_Jolla_: https://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg01464.html14:01
faenilSK_work, received your reply, there's some delay it seems :)14:03
SK_workfaenil: yep, np :)14:03
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Morpog_Jolla_will need to subscribe fist, gonna do that later at home14:07
locusfyou can answer here too :)14:08
Morpog_Jolla_weren't mer repos also on github?14:08
Morpog_Jolla_why gitlab then?14:09
locusfbut migrating to git.merproject.org at the moment14:09
locusfwhich is gitlab14:09
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Morpog_Jolla_i would ask a moe drastic question: is it worth kerping nemo as an own distro? Wouldn't it be more sane to base on sailfish? Seeing that the only proper target nemomobile had was n9  and n950 on x11 + qt414:14
locusfit _might_ be possible to do nemo on Jolla14:14
SK_workfaenil: please :d14:15
locusfwe have yet to investigate with faenil14:15
locusffaenil: but I already voted :p14:15
SK_workMorpog_Jolla_: isn't nemo and SFOS sharing quite a lot of packages ?14:15
SK_workso basically you can do both can't you ?14:15
SK_workbase on sailfish and as own distrop14:16
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Morpog_Jolla_well, lots of effort but minimal roi14:16
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faenilno no, no basing on sailfish, imho14:19
faenilnemo is cool because it's all OSS14:19
faeniland I don't intend to change that, but we can have a vote on that as well :D14:19
SK_workfaenil: basing on sailfish means takes sailfish mer and nemo packages that are OSS14:20
SK_workand sailfish HW adaptation that is less OSS ?14:20
SK_workand also: have phones to develop on14:20
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faenilSK_work, basing on sailfish means taking contactsd, social, etc closed part from sailfish, to me14:20
faenilnot contactsd (which is OSS), but you got what I meant14:21
SK_workit is: use it as a tool14:21
SK_workfaenil: not for me ...14:21
faenilall the closed-source auxiliary features14:21
SK_workbecause the two distros are very close, it's fairly easy to dev on the Jolla14:21
SK_workcompare to ... N9 / N950, or worse, iconia tabs etc.14:22
SK_workthe only other thing that's easy to develop on is virtualbox14:22
bencohI wouldnt call that "easy", but *meh*14:23
bencoheasy for people that arent used to embedded/cross env maybe ... but *hell* for those who are14:23
bencohI guess SK_work was refferring to sailfish sdk vm14:25
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faenilbencoh, why easy for people who aren't used to cross env?14:33
bencohwell "easier" than usual cross stuff :)14:34
SK_workfaenil: easy since you don't have a huge list of HW adaptation issues14:34
bencoh(actually I dont find it "easy" so ...)14:34
faenilbencoh, you mean it's easy for people who *are* used to cross env?14:34
bencohhm, no (?)14:35
faenilwhy should it be hell for people who are already used to those practices..14:35
faenilsorry misread, I got what you mean14:36
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locusffaenil: getting ready for ita-uru :)?15:40
SK_workI thought this was some strange language (like japenese)15:41
SK_workand suddenly I remember about football15:41
sledgesi thought it was in finnish15:43
SK_workthe uru is misleading :D15:43
faenillocusf, indeed!15:43
sledgesmitakuuluu :)15:44
locusflol finnish :)15:45
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* faenil sadly walks away18:00
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Morpog_PCok, so I never used a maillist before. What do I have to do? :D19:24
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faenilMorpog_PC, to subscribe?19:35
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Morpog_PCthat I now completed, mail was in spam :)19:37
Morpog_PCnow waiting for the help response19:37
Morpog_PCok faenil that help mail didnt help at all :D19:38
Morpog_PCso, how do i reply to your question?19:38
Morpog_PCcopy the subject and send to maillist?19:38
bencohyou hit the "answer" button19:39
Morpog_PCbut I got no mail yet19:39
Morpog_PCi just subscribed19:39
bencohoh, right, sorry19:39
bencohbest practice would be to copy the message reference to the In-Reply-To: header, to keep thread intact19:40
bencohbut I guess most people wouldnt do it19:40
Morpog_PClet's see if that works19:40
faenilMorpog_PC, ah, you can reply also via some websites19:41
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Morpog_PCdid it work? :)19:45
Morpog_PCyes it did19:46
faenilMorpog_PC, ;)19:49
Morpog_PCnow i just need to tell my spam filter not to filter it :)19:50
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gogetaqualcomm gpu20:08
gogetamore fun20:10
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tbrfaenil: 12:21:48<@faenil> lbt, so, if it's not a problem of money, I'd leave Nemo's bz renaming it to glacier bz20:27
faeniltbr, okay, my fault it seems, I probably said the first name that came to my mind20:27
faenilI don't think glacier is a good name20:28
faenil(not at all)20:28
tbrfor me that implied that nemo-mw folds into mer and nemo ui drops the name → nemo dead20:28
gogetaossidiana faenil ?20:29
faenilI meant leave as in "leave it there"20:29
gogetado you like it20:29
faenilgogeta, ?20:29
gogetayou don't like glacier20:29
faenilno no, it's a different reason20:30
faenilglacier is just the current UI (current theme, actually)20:30
faenilwe need a more generic name20:30
faeniltbr, I still don't see where you got that nemo ui drops the name :/ but anyway, doesn't matter :)20:30
tbr"renaming it to glacier"20:31
qwazixI don't get why are we even discussing naming20:31
faeniltbr, glacier is the name of nemo ui... :/20:31
tbrwe don't, we're discussing why I got the wrong impression20:31
sledgestwitter.com/nemomobile <- i think it should stay like that, also if you google nemomobile you see different boards running oss ux20:32
tbrfaenil: yes, but you will want to track more than just ui bugs20:32
faeniltbr, non UI bugs means nemomw -> Mer20:32
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tbrfaenil: yes, but then nemo as such ceases to exist, exactly where I got that impression20:32
faeniltbr, well, nemo mw is merged with Mer, there was nothing to misunderstand there, I don't see how that is a bad thing and how that means it's dead though20:33
faenilit's still the same :/20:33
tbrfaenil: will there be still nemo mobile images for devices or will they be now called Mer+Glacier images?20:34
tbrmaybe I'm just really bad at getting my point across20:34
faenilMer+NemoUI (or Nemomobile?)20:34
faeniland Nemo UI could be either Glacier, or something else20:34
faeniltbr, I'm under the impression that you're doing a battle around naming :/20:35
tbrI'm not20:35
tbrgeeee, all I wanted to was to clarify what you guys are up to20:35
tbrand now I'm getting accused of being hostile20:35
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faeniltbr, no no :)20:36
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qwazixNemo is the distro, just like Linux Mint, or Ubuntu Gnome20:38
qwazixbased on mer, with (for now) glacier UI on top20:38
qwazixNemo is the complete product, i.e. if we get to the happy day that a product is shipped, it will say Nemo as it's OS20:38
faenilyeah, Nemomobile probably is the right name?20:39
faenilas sledges was saying20:39
qwazixI always liked the concatenated version better20:39
qwazixdeath by example: Maemo is based on debian with hildon on top20:40
qwazixs/Maemo/Nemomobile/ s/debian/mer/ s/hildon/glacier/20:41
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faeniltbr, oh hey :) so...back to where we were20:45
tbrI'm still going to bed now. It seems this is not my day, at all.20:45
faeniltbr, let's start from earlier, as I seem I misunderstood what you wanted to know, but I got it from your last msg before leaving20:45
faenilso, nothing changed here20:45
faenil(at least afaik)20:45
faenilwe'll still be developing a UI for the new Mer (which is Mer+NemoMw)20:46
faenilwhich is what we've done so far20:46
faenil(we've barely touched middleware in all these months)20:46
faenilso, on our side, at least as far as I can tell, nothing changed :)20:46
faenilNemomobile will be alive and kicking (and hopefully I can spend more time on it after I'm graduated)20:46
faeniland I guess the other guys ( qwazix locusf Morpog_PC sandy, and please forgive me if I'm forgetting someone)20:47
faenilagree with this :)20:47
faenilthe only difference being that we'll be basing our work on the new Mer, instead of basing it on both Mer+NemoMw20:48
faenilso, nothing is dead, just a few new names, for the same stuff ;)20:48
tbrwell nothing changes then and all was just me misunderstanding your intentions20:49
faenil(at least this is what I think)20:49
faeniltbr, awesome to hear that :) and sorry for the misunderstanding20:49
faeniltbr, so, what we were discussing is whether to keep the current NemoMw+NemoUI bugzilla for only NemoUI stuff (which is what we focus on)20:49
faenilor switch NemoUI stuff to gitlab/github issues for bugtracking purposes20:50
faeniltbr, please say your opinion on ML as well, if you have experience with those tools ;)20:50
tbrI personally feel that there are significant trust issues with Jolla and their behaviour. At several points thei asserted ownership of Mer _and_ Nemo (without clarifying to mean nemo-mw) and their intention to do as they please.20:51
faeniltbr, I agree with those points, btw20:51
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faenilbut don't worry you'd see me setting their homes on fire if they were to kill Nemomobile just like that :D20:52
tbrand to be blunt honest, the whole story of "Jolla does not exist" is a load of hogwash, jerking off to an idealised concept that's extremely hard to grasp.20:52
faeniltbr, I agree that atm the Jolla entity is only being used when they see pleased20:53
faenilbut let's not start this discussion, if you're going to bed :D20:53
tbryes, that's for another day20:53
sledgeswouldn't this be more like Jolla being the vendor within Mer -- the way Mer was actually structured ?20:54
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sledgesand also the biggest vendor - hence meroticracy (?) just speculating here..20:54
faenil"when they see pleased" does that even mean anything? or was it a brain fart?20:54
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faenilI probably wanted to use another idiom, but can't remember it atm20:55
tbr"when they please" (as in when they feel like it)20:56
faenilmm could be, but I remember there was a "see"20:57
tbras they see fit?20:57
faenilmaybe I was thinking about "when they see fit?"20:57
faenilas they see20:57
faenilcould be20:57
tbrsledges: nobody disputes that and its contributions, but it's not an excuse for the non-open-source-culture like behaviour that we've seen over the past year20:58
sledgeserrare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum20:59
* sledges feels very smart for this tiny moment :)))20:59
faenilsledges, you think there hasn't been enough perseverare? :D20:59
tbrsledges: yes, and we (the open source community) are eager to see things change, but we're careful20:59
sledgesfaenil: nevertheless, it has not been a constant idle or worse, regress21:00
sledgesthe question is, how tolerant+empathetic the community is towards its main contributor21:02
faenilsledges, I haven't see a single discussion about nemo since jolla got into the release rush21:02
sledgeswho does't do bad things on purpose..21:02
tbralso it does not help, that jolla essentially has raped the term "open" PR wise like any other corporation has done before. there, I said it out loud.21:02
tbrif jolla says open, I first think of OOXML-kind-of-open. That's how bad this is for me.21:03
sledgesfaenil: you'd like jolla to embark on nemo? (sorry must have missed something in a backlog, i though it was more about a recent tbr's misunderstanding)21:03
sledgesi disagree with "truly open" slogan21:03
tbrsledges: no, we're now in general criticism.21:03
sledges"opening up more and more" would be better (cc: lbt)21:04
sledgesi share his opinion21:04
sledgesjust didn't come up with a good PR slogan :)21:04
tbrthe problem is the total disconnect between PR and what the company tries to do, apparently21:04
tbrwhich probably works on consumers, but the open source community is pissed21:05
faenilsledges, I remember when I spent a lot of time on nemo, the chat was quite active21:05
faenilbefore jolla set up his own server21:05
tbrreally pissed. I'm not the only one, go and look at all the others who recently voiced their criticism.21:05
faeniland from then on, it's been so convenient to just hide behind the "oh, but we discuss a lot of confidential stuff" slogan21:06
tbrfk_lx had a _lot_ of valid criticism and it's a shame its credibility has been essentially nullified21:06
faenil+1000 on that21:06
faenilbut I guess most of us know and agree on that21:07
sledgesi've seen he opened jolla much more up21:07
Aardsledges: not true21:07
sledgesand we're continuing on doing so21:07
Aardeverything we did there was not connected to him in any way21:07
sledgeswell Aard, he made roadmap emails see the light of day21:07
sledgesand sailfish weekly meetings iirc21:08
sledgesthere were some more bits and pieces21:08
Aardsledges: that's all stuff we've been working on for a long time. there might have been bits that got moved a few weeks, but that's about it21:08
fk_lxtbr: shit happens - I'm focusing on legal steps, I don't care much about credibility in this community21:09
faenilAard, Jolla is always "working on" a lot of stuff, most of which unfortunately doesn't see the light until someone makes so much noise to make it happen21:09
sledgesok, from another perspective - jolla didn't have enough time for extra things as there was a product waiting to be out through the door :) but im sure you were planning those21:09
fk_lxhave fun people21:10
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sledgesand i see it we're on a good way21:11
sledgesjust things slowing down for summer break a bit21:11
sledgesdon't frustrate too deeply :)21:11
Aardsledges: faenil: thet stuff happened just when we were moving to more regular release work and due to that had time for additional stuff. timing there is just coincidence21:11
fk_lxI'm sure there are good people in this community, and Nemo will prevail in that or other form21:11
fk_lxgood luck with Nemo21:11
fk_lxok, goota go, cya21:12
faenilgood night21:12
* tbr also finally disappears21:12
* artemma thinks nemomobile would actually be an awesome base for a device manufacturer powerful enough to try a new OS independent from Google. Nemo could be for HTC what Tizen used to be for Samsung before the recent Google agreement21:13
faenilartemma, except nobody wants to work on nemomobile except the people who have been working on it for a long time :D21:13
artemmawell, nemo sorta is like this for Jolla, Jolla is just on a different scale21:13
faenilit seems we're scary :D21:13
sledgesartemma: what agreement?21:13
artemmasledges: Google agreed to make Samsung special. My speculations (and some other analysts speculations) are that Tizen played its role when negotiating and is not really needed anymore21:14
artemmasomething like a month ago21:14
sledgesi think jolla should be appreciated because people in there went for the goal, got funding, employed tens of people full time, and are making everything happen as best they can (not ideal world, but nemo should catch up - it won't be easy, but otherwise i don't there would be anything...)21:15
sledgesartemma: makes sense...21:15
faenilnobody denies there's potential in jolla, or we wouldn't even be here talking about it :)21:16
artemmaJolla is totally an awesome startup attempt21:16
artemmawould be cool to see it successful21:16
artemmaafter all right now it makes the only platform where I can use my beloved QML in full :)21:16
* artemma would love to see sailfishos grown enough to have actual clients for contractual sailfishos apps development21:16
artemmait still has a chance me thinks. Not very big, but come on, it's a startup - they never have big chances21:17
Aardfaenil: when considering dropping bz in favour of github -- we're working on getting our CI infrastructure in shape that we can offer mer/nemo to set up their own like we're using for proper issue tracking over releases and stuff. if you move to github you won't be able to benefit from that21:17
sledgesfaenil: i think that jolla will have to scale up, and if not by headcount, i agree with you about offloading efforts to community21:18
faenilAard, mmm I see, thanks...can you please reply with that info on ML?21:19
artemmaoffloading a lot or even *hell a lot of stuff* to community is sure a significant risk. But is it higher than failing to run the same real properly on limited own finances and few people? :)21:19
faenilsledges, everyone agrees, and still, after *months*, community can still mostly nothing21:20
artemmawell, it takes somebody to make a decision at the very least :)21:20
artemmaand decision making can be difficult21:20
Aardfaenil: not sure yet, might be that I'll only play catch up on the mailinglist when I'm back from vacation in august. too much stuff to take care of before than (and making sure that the behind-the-scenes stuff for community work does not stall is one of them)21:20
artemmaespecially if decision makers are overloaded with current tactical issues21:20
faenilAard, is it okay if I quote you then?21:21
sledgesfaenil: community should suggest more concrete steps how they can help, so jolla has to think less and just say yes :) put more thought in it, write some infra themselves21:21
faenilsledges, ....21:21
sledgesinstead of just saying we need beta testers21:21
sledgesrome won't be built in a day21:22
bencohbeta testers for ?21:22
bencohnemo, mer, or sailfish ?21:22
sledgesbencoh: sorry off topic21:22
Aardfaenil: you can, but make it clear that there are no promises regarding schedule. mer infra itself is a bit messy atm, so upgrading is a bit rough, it ties in to the bugzilla upgrade (=lots of work by itself), and we need to do customizations only relevant for mer (we did some customizations for webhooks we'll hopefully soon roll out on mer infra allowing definition of project namespaces on obs and acls to create webhooks in those, ...21:23
Aard... eliminating the current handful of admins who are the only ones capable of doing webhooks)21:23
sledgesfaenil: i guess we all can say - we don't have enough time to mastermind :)) #21stcenturyproblems21:24
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faenilAard, okay, I'll add a note about the "no promises"21:25
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AardI'll try to get one other member of jolla started before I go on vacation (7.7.), but not sure yet if it'll work out -- just bought a house, a bit faster than expected, and have fun organizing the move on top of everything else21:26
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sledgesfaenil: given nemo development is levels and headcount suffices to do issue tracking on github, a changeover to more centralised bz can be done later, no?21:26
artemmawasn't the simplest first step to take community in already agreed to be an actual bug tracker?21:26
Aardbetween 7.7. and 3.8. I'll probably only be around occasionally. need to start taking last years vacation :)21:27
sledgesAard: congrats on house21:27
faenilAard, just have the community do the move, eheh21:27
faeniland congrats, yeah :)21:27
* artemma remembers real bug tracker being agreed on #mer-meeting something like a month ago yet today there was again discussion on why isn't TJC good for it21:27
artemmaAard: congrats with the house!21:27
faenilsledges, yes I think so21:27
faenilartemma, ah thank you, because when I said we agreed about a real bug tracker21:27
faenilthe replies were disappointing21:27
faenillbt, ^21:28
Aardfaenil: not that easy, part of my plan there is to introduce one of our ladies as a regular contact coordinating technical stuff around community, but who is available for your issues as well. that just needs to be done setting up from our side21:28
* artemma wasn't participating much today - busy with other stuff, but noticed that surprising moment21:28
faenilAard, I meant the house move ;)21:28
bencohto be honest, I dont understand a damn thing about current obs/repository tracking/* in mer (or in nemo for that matters) :)21:28
faenilbencoh, understandable :D21:29
Aardfaenil: ah, sure. just drop by, everyone only one box :p21:29
faenilAard, eheh21:29
* artemma wonders if there is actually some person in Jolla to make decisions about it. Sometimes it feels like Nokiaish decision paralysis, because nobody knows whose decision it is to be and wants the committee to agree21:29
bencohI know it had to move at some point, but how/where to/what to .... no idea ^^21:29
faenilartemma, THAT21:29
faenilTHAT, THAT!21:29
artemmaIn Nokis times it was usually solved by courageous leutenants that were making it semi-officially on some privately hijacked servers. Jolla might however be not big and bureacratic enough for such leutenants to exist :)21:30
sledgesartemma: jolla employees register bugs internally, yet work in the open; goal is underway to externalise those bugs, what Aard said above; a hasty introduction of an ad hoc bug tracker would just stir things up for all parties21:30
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artemmasledges: I guess people would appreciate some roadmap hints about it21:31
faenilsledges, work in the open is a big word21:31
artemmaoh wait, was somebody saying it before already? :)21:31
sledgesmeeting minutes?21:31
faenilthey push to repos, that21:31
bencoh(co-mmu-ni-ca-tion :°)21:31
faenilthey work behind closed door (very closed) but push to open repos21:31
* artemma also thinks that community is overusing com-mu-ni-cation demands :)21:32
artemmaJolla people communicate *a lot* right here21:32
faenilyes, right here, that's the problem :P21:32
artemmathere are very specific types of communication missing21:32
artemmaIMHO it is at least semi-public and semi-sure roadmap that is missing most21:32
faenilartemma, we had that discussion already21:33
Aardartemma: tl;dr for the bugtracker: mer-bz needs to be upgraded, and will then be linked to the jolla-bz, so we can use mer-bugs for issue tracking internally, while comments and stuff still end up in mer-bz. that should be tied in with us trying to sell you advantages of our CI processes21:33
artemmayeah, sorry for going to another circle21:33
faeniland the solution was that soumya will post roadmaps at each iteration planning21:33
Aardthe whole thing is a bit of a testbed for a possible sailfish bugzilla instance as well, which, if it happens, will open up several other things21:33
sledgesfaenil: that's called code-drops, and public bug tracker would make things more transparent; however in mer-general we already have people saying about their decisions and then requesting comments before they merge code21:33
artemmaAard: that sounds good to me, thanks. Bugzilla should be standard enough for everybody (even if some would prefer a different tracker)21:34
faenilAard, where were you during the meeting :P21:35
faenil(thanks for the update)21:35
Aardwe've been at that since last year, but only recently started having time to actually push things. right now issues on mer-side exist in our bugzilla, but must be tracked manually -- which is an intentional decision by me back then to make it so painful for releases that we'll eventually be forced to do the bz work we're doing now21:35
Aardfaenil: which one?21:36
faenilAard, today's community meeting, where we had a 30mins discussion about nemo/mer merge and bugzilla situation21:36
faenilit seems nobody believed we actually agreed a real tracker was coming21:36
faenil(sooner or later)21:36
Aardprobably sitting at my bank, signing contracts and transfering obscene amounts of money21:36
faenilreading the log again it seems david actually mentioned using the mer bz21:37
Aardwell, as long as we don't have that (+ convinced you guys to introduce some bits of jolla ci-proceduce) I'll have lots of additional pain when making releases, so, yes, it'll come21:37
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