Saturday, 2014-11-15

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hedayatmoning locusf09:33
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locusfsilver_hook: I should get started on Nemo on Jolla but I've been busy with the homescreen rotation09:41
locusfsilver_hook: I really don't know if dualbooting is even possible, I doubt it :/09:42
locusfsilver_hook: I'm aiming for a full installation instead09:42
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locusfsilver_hook: also you asked about core apps, those do exist but those that work still use the old qt components from Nokia era10:18
locusfsilver_hook: <- here are some apps10:20
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plfiorinilocusf, guess that silica is not FLOSS so it cannot be used10:27
locusfplfiorini: yes indeed10:27
plfiorinilocusf, would it be worth doing a silica compatibility layer to bring sailfish apps to nemo?10:28
locusfplfiorini: glacier components already have a target to be silica compatible, I just don't remember how it was to be done10:29
plfioriniat least those that are open source could be used just changing the import line10:29
plfiorinilocusf, nize10:29
silver_hooklocusf: Nice ☺ If you need a tester, I volunteer.10:32
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locusfsilver_hook: sure, thanks, but I guess the process of installing Nemo on Jolla _will_ void your warranty quite permanently :)10:33
silver_hooklocusf: Nope10:34
locusfsilver_hook: oh ok10:34
silver_hookIt might void Jolla’s (extra) warranty, but not the statutory 2 year warranty you get on HW by EU law ;)10:35
locusfsilver_hook: well I have no idea about Jolla warranty, normally all Sailors just say that "if you break it, you get to keep both pieces" ;)10:35
silver_hooklocusf: Well, they should buckle up then ;)10:35
locusfsilver_hook: ok :)10:36
locusfI have a quite involved theory on how the Nemo rootfs installation might go on Jolla, it basically includes the overwrite of the factory snapshot thus far (I might survive without though, using a custom snapshot with Nemo rootfs)10:37
silver_hookSource: Carlo Piana (the lawyer involved in the Samba vs MS case in front of EU) and me wrote that analysis and well, a voluntary warranty cannot overrule law.10:38
silver_hooklocusf: If it helps to get more people interested in trying out Nemo, you can link to the following, more formal sounding, URL:
locusfsilver_hook: ok good to know :)10:40
silver_hookThe litmus test is flashing original firmware back.10:41
locusfsilver_hook: we don't currently have the original firmware10:42
silver_hooksay what?10:42
locusfwe only have the rootfs snapshots that coderus has provided10:42
locusfsilver_hook: yes, Jolla does not provide original firmware images10:42
silver_hook…but you can flash it onto Android phones?10:42
locusfdue to third party limitation10:43
locusfsilver_hook: you mean flash Nemo on them, sure10:43
locusfthe problem is, I don't have a nexus 5 to test Nemo on :)10:44
locusfI just bought a Galaxy Nexus instead10:44
silver_hookMe neither.10:44
silver_hookBut that’s not an official image?10:45
locusfnope, its a specific hardware adaptation image for a Nexus 510:45
locusfwill not work on Jolla10:45
silver_hookOf course. But that image was made by Jolla, right?10:45
locusfsilver_hook: I would guess so yes10:46
silver_hookSo there’s an official Jolla SailfishOS image for the Nexus, but there is none for their own flagship Jolla phone?10:46
locusfhmm actually since its uploaded to devaamo I would rather assume that it was situ who uploaded it to there10:46
locusfsilver_hook: yes10:47
locusfno images10:47
silver_hookThat’s a bit odd, isn’t it?10:47
locusfit sucks big time but its not Jollas fault10:47
hedayatsilver_hook, I'd guess that the Nexus 5 image doesn't contain all Jolla software,10:48
hedayatlike our N9 image. Specially, it might be related to their Android compatibility stack10:49
hedayatbut its really weird that you can not flash your Jolla phone!10:49
hedayatlocusf, are there any other phones with such limitation?10:49
silver_hookThat’s *mighty* odd :/10:50
locusfhedayat: iPhone? You'd need iTunes in order to flash and the images are not public10:50
silver_hookWell, that’s not a very flattering comparison.10:51
hedayatlocusf, hmm at least there is *some* way to flash, does Jolla provide such paths?10:51
* silver_hook imagines jokes about Finnish jails popping up.10:51
locusfhedayat: well replacing the factory snapshot is as close as we can get to flashing10:52
locusfdone with:
silver_hookIf that gets you a working phone, yup.10:53
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locusfI trust that this utility is extremely dangerous to use10:53
locusfthe injection method seems like a way to go10:55
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locusffor Nemo I mean10:56
locusfit bothers me that Nemo is essentially now part of Mer, we should rather call it Glacier OS10:56
locusfand have our own projects in OBS for this purpose10:56
silver_hookWhy does it bother you?10:57
locusfwell its technically incorrect now to talk about Nemo :)10:58
locusfbut I'm just being anal10:58
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silver_hookAFAICT Mer is the middleware and Nemo, Plasma and Sailfish are the end-user side, right?10:59
silver_hook…at least that’s what I gathered from reading about Mer.10:59
locusfMer is the entire core system, Nemo has the middleware and UI10:59
locusfand Sailfish is partially using Nemo middleware and its own closed UI11:00
locusfbut yes Nemo and Sailfish are the end-user side of things11:00
silver_hookBut due to Sailfish, Nemo is being handled as part of Mer – is that what you’re saying?11:01
locusfsilver_hook: not due to Sailfish, it was a community decision to include some of the middleware parts of Nemo to Mer11:02
situsledges: lbt: I built a new image but I am not able to telnet to my device after booting.11:07
situActually I even don't know if it boots or not.11:07
silver_hooklocusf: Any idea which Qualcomm bits are troublesome here?11:07
locusfsilver_hook: nope, I don't have a clue :/11:08
locusfsilver_hook: here is the historical mail of the merge
silver_hookThanks :)11:10
silver_hookMeh, I know Jolla is young, but I hope they soon stop being less open than the average Android :/11:10
silver_hooklocusf: That mail actually doesn’t sound that bad :)11:14
locusfsilver_hook: hehe it doesn't :)11:15
silver_hookI like the GitLab idea11:15
silver_hookAnyway, great talking to you – I’ve learnt a lot of things (some good, some not so good), but I have to go now. BBL11:18
locusfok thank you too :)11:19
silver_hookMeh, I hoped that getting Nemo on Jolla would be easier :/11:19
silver_hookqwazix: BTW, great work on the Glacier UI and blogging about it – I love the personal assistant / CLI idea.11:22
situsledges: It looks like some recent changes in kernel or devices file have broken booting.11:25
lbtsilver_hook: o/11:30
lbtI was out last night - got your email though11:30
silver_hooklbt: ,o/ I sent you a mail11:30
silver_hookCool :)11:30
lbtI'm just in the middle of some probs atm11:31
silver_hookNothing serious I hope :/11:32
lbtI hope not :)11:32
silver_hookCool :)11:33
silver_hooklbt: The thing is at the moment there’s two ways I could get a Jolla – 1) that I win the givewawa by cybette (not likely); or 2) I get it to replace my work phone.11:35
silver_hookAlternatively, if there is a better Mer/Nemo phone than Jolla, I’d be happy to have that as my workphone :)11:35
lbtit's an interesting issue - do you go with people who are working towards an openness goal but aren't there yet - or do you go with people who happen to be using open but it's not their goal ?11:37
lbtCM and AOSP source is open - but then you're using totally closed google services11:38
lbtdo you measure using licenses on LoC thrown over the wall metrics or 'conduct day to day development on irc' metrics ?11:39
silver_hooklbt: I know …that’s why I’m trying very hard to push FSFE into working more with Mer/Nemo/ and Jolla.11:39
silver_hooklbt: To be honest …at the moment I just need it to be “close enough” that I get one and that I can help you guys ;)11:41
lbt*nod* ... I can't personally give a LoC metric - I don't know enough about android11:41
lbtthe closed parts of SailfishOS are the C++ bits of the top level apps (I think most of the QML is BSD - others know more than I)11:42
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silver_hooklbt: Can you reply that in a mail so I can quote it in my internal expense request?11:43
jonwilLast I heard the FSF had a negative attitude to all things mobile (or is that just RMS?)11:43
silver_hookjonwil: FSF and FSFE are two different entities.11:44
silver_hookAs far as I know RMS, he doesn’t like mobile at all, but two years ago when he was visiting Ljubljana I saw him use a (dumb) mobile phone.11:44
silver_hookAs for the rest of FSF, my understanding is that they are not against mobile, but most try to use Replicant.11:45
* silver_hook just prefers Maemo/MeeGo/Mer/… over Android :p11:46
jonwilyeah I think RMS mostly has the attitude of being anti-mobile because of all the tracking that is done using them (the whole "11:47
* lbt gets back with coffee11:47
jonwilthe whole "tracing device in your pocket" thing11:47
lbtsilver_hook: sure11:47
lbtsilver_hook: have you read the tjc open stuff ?11:48
silver_hookjonwil: Most people who work for FSFE use Omni ROM and F-Droid on top to avoid Google. This sadly still means that there’s proprietary drivers (and the whole GSM stack), but it’s a compromise.11:48
silver_hooklbt: Nope?11:48
silver_hookjonwil: And there is a point there, yes. There’s and though.11:50
silver_hooklbt: Ah, that. Yes I did.11:50
* lbt also notes that there is #jollamobile (chat) #sailfishos (development) #sailfishos-porters (devel of sfos onto droid devices) ,,,, partly to allow nemo/mer to be clearly their own projects :)11:50
silver_hookI know Stskeeps wrote that, but I find it lacking and wanted to check in private before coming accross to negative on the public website – we’re all in the same boat here!11:52
jonwilThats why I like the Neo900 because its going to be more open than basically any phone to date and will probably have a good 80% of the hardware bits and drivers as FOSS (the GPU drivers wont be FOSS but basically all the audio stuff should be, as should all of the cellular stack running on the main CPU)11:53
lbt*nod* .. to my mind there are things you can do as a commercial organisation that you can't do as a project and vice-versa11:55
lbthaving them work together and support each other seems to be the most constructive overall11:55
jonwilIf the community was doing as much for PowerVR as has been done for ARM Mali or Qualcomm Ardreno then the drivers wouldn't need to be blobs either11:55
locusffaenil: I disagree on the notion that we should first complete the components and then start on the apps, we have enough components now to start doing eg. dialer11:56
silver_hookjonwil: I’m following the Neo900 as well, but it seems quite underpowered for modern use :/11:58
jonwilIts not meant to be the most powerful device out there, its meant to be a device that has all the good things about the N900 (including the abillity to run N900 software) with a little bit more power, a better cellular modem and a few other features11:59
Wizzupsilver_hook: define 'modern' use11:59
silver_hooklbt: Agreed. And my feeling is that the Jolla + Mer/Nemo/… sitaution is a lot more harmonious than the competition.11:59
lbtthat is our objective12:00
jonwilAlso with the Neo900 you cant do a lot of the things possible (or rumored to be possible) on other phones12:00
Wizzupcan or cant12:00
silver_hookWizzup: You’re right, you’re right. Em, you know …pleople want to watch HD videos and play games while they’re twatting and facing their books.12:01
silver_hook…or is it booking their faces?12:01
jonwillike the rumors that its possible to use a cellphone and remotely turn on the microphone and listen in, thats not possible12:01
lbtand another way to look at it is the hybris stuff is about subverting the closed blobs :D12:01
Wizzupsilver_hook: heh12:01
jonwilnot possible on the Neo90012:01
jonwilits built to give the user 100% control over the AP side of the system against spying and data theft and such12:01
silver_hooklbt: Yup, I just need an excuse to help you guys with that and give the projects more visibility through FSFE ;)12:03
* silver_hook is an evil scheming bastard, aye12:03
silver_hookjonwil: With “AP” you mean access point or what?12:04
jonwilI mean application processor12:04
jonwili.e. the AP controls all the hardware12:04
jonwiland the baseband gets essentially no access to the hardware12:04
jonwilthe BP cant touch main memory12:04
jonwilcant pull data from the flash12:04
jonwili.e. you can trust that the BP isn't doing nasty things behind your back12:05
silver_hookAh, neat. So how things *should* be done, but most companies are too cheap to do it? ;)12:05
lbtyes - the fundamental smartphone hardware architecture is problematic12:05
lbtsilver_hook: if by 'cheap' you mean 'don't own their own factories' then yes :)12:05
jonwilin the case of the Neo900, the cellular setup is a module with the interface being mostly AT commands (standard and otherwise)12:06
lbtthe reason that smartphones are ubiquitous is the low cost - and the consistency of design12:06
silver_hooklbt: I meant “can’t afford to push a factory not to save on such stuff”, but that’s pretty similar, yes ;)12:06
* Stskeeps got hilighted?12:06
lbtcoulda been my bad :)12:07
jonwileven has physical "off" switch to ensure cellular radio isn't sending a single signal if you don't want it to do so12:07
silver_hookStskeeps: lbt is handling it fine, but you’re welcome to join the party ;)12:07
lbtjust talking about openness and jolla again12:07
lbtwhere are we cf android - and hopefully where are we going12:08
jonwilI just wish more people were contributing to the Neo900 software stack :P12:08
Stskeepsi'm in a car going towards home, so maybe not :P12:08
silver_hookStskeeps: Drive safely, we’ll do fine here.12:10
lbtjonwil: yep - or the Neo900 should be aiming to take advantage of resources working on the rest of the opensource stack :)12:10
silver_hookjonwil: Agreed. But is Mer/Nemo already running on it?12:10
jonwilNeo900 as hardware doesn't exist yet :)12:10
jonwilOther than prototypes12:10
jonwilsoftware stack is being done on N900 hardware for now12:11
jonwile.g. Neo900 and N900 have nearly identical audio systems so audio work can be done on N90012:11
jonwilThat said, pulsaudio-nokia-* is turning out to be a nightmare of NEON assembler, PulseAudio crap and general annoyances12:12
lbtit's interesting to check the long-term viability of using a non de-facto 'standard' hw architecture12:12
Stskeepsthere's one thing i kind of wonder with many 'open' phones approaches.. it really sometimes seems like projects need people in china to spearhead and network into the ODM ecosystem12:13
lbtwhat android has done is create a huge industry which practically fixes the hw arch and the apis out to userland12:13
Stskeepsie, a lot of trouble can be avoided with source code access and so on if you speak the same language/culture..12:13
Stskeepseven in what's considered low numbers12:14
jonwilNeo900 project is too small to matter to 90% of vendors12:14
lbtadd more 9s :)12:14
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Stskeepsjonwil: the 10% are the ones that really matter..12:15
silver_hookStskeeps: Yup the culture bit is very important here.12:15
Stskeepsin jolla we've been incredibly blessed as we had people that knew the odm ecosystem already and how to work it12:16
jonwilOther good thing about Neo900 is that it copies the physical hw keyboard straight from the N900 (best hw keyboard I have ever used)12:16
lbtah ... but TOHKBD ... :D12:17
* lbt runs12:17
* jonwil wonders what nemo-on-N900 does for audio stuff these days12:18
lbtsilver_hook: did you see that?12:18
* jonwil wonders if it uses the pulseaudio blobs or forgoes those and does without the special algos they implement12:18
Stskeepsdoes nemo even run on n900 these days?12:18
jonwilthat I dont know :P12:19
locusfvakkov has been doing something for that regard, he hasn't reported anything new12:19
jonwilN9 is same thing though, same pulseaudio blobs (or much the same anyway)12:19
silver_hooklbt: I did, that’s why I’m trying to order it now! XD12:19
Stskeepsi heard a talk about the leikr guys yesterday..12:19
silver_hookI only worries if the TOHKBD is going to be Sailfish-only or work as fancily on anything Mer.12:19
Stskeepsit sounded like they had heaps of fun with TI/omap12:19
Stskeepssilver_hook: well, it's really threefold12:20
Stskeepsone is the integration into input framework, perhaps additional input method adjustments12:20
Stskeepsone is utilizing open source kernel interfaces12:20
jonwilbah, its too hot and humid here for me to get the inspiration to actually work on code or reverse engineering or other actual work that requires real thinking...12:20
Stskeepsand third is qa12:20
lbtsilver_hook: it's physically tied to the jolla ToH which is a bit unique12:20
Stskeepsah, yes, third is physical interfaces12:21
locusfI guess he meant about the drivers12:21
lbtsilver_hook: if you know any other phones which open the I2C interface... Neo900 ?12:21
locusfwe do have the interface for I2C in the kernel, right?12:21
* jonwil wishes there was a way to send all the super-cold weather from Europe down here to Australia :P12:21
Stskeepscome to slush. you'll wish yourself back to australia.12:21
lbtjonwil: and the wet ?12:21
jonwilfreezing rain or snow would be better than 30+ celcius heat and humidity of 70%12:22
locusfsilver_hook: are you coming to FOSDEM?12:22
* Stskeeps should start booking tickets to FOSDEM..12:22
* lbt starts taking bookings for the Mer meal ...12:23
silver_hooklocusf: I probably am, yes.12:23
Stskeepslbt: you knew a good steak place right, and without a rude waiter?12:23
lbtawesome place - I'll call them12:24
Wizzup13:18 < Stskeeps> does nemo even run on n900 these days?12:24
Wizzupgood and interesting question :)12:24
silver_hooklbt: No, I don’t know any other phones with I2C  …there’s Project Ara / Phonebloks maybe.12:26
locusfsilver_hook: great, I'm coming too :)12:26
locusfsilver_hook: we _might_ have a stand for Mer/Nemo there12:27
silver_hooklocusf: Neat! Make sure you’re close to the FSFE and KDE booths ')12:27
locusfsilver_hook: hehe, we'll try that :)12:29
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faenilhey, it seems like I'm missing all the fun! :P12:35
lbtoh yes12:35
faenilmeals, tickets, discussions12:35
faenilit seems I ruined the atmosphere  :(12:40
faenilback to my stuff :P12:40
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locusfwaaah I wanted silver_hook to meet faenil, our mastermind :)12:54
silver_hookWell, I’ll keep hanging around, so there’s still time :)12:55
locusfhes super busy nowadays but he'll pop up sometimes :)12:56
silver_hookNeat ☺12:57
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coderuswe have websockets?15:44
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AlphaX2Hi guys. Is there a way to create new Accounts for Sailfish? I tried to create a share plugin, but all the service login stuff can't be done with the share plugin part, but depends on accounts as far as I can see / Coderus told at the mailing list. Any ideas how to do that? Or how to work around? Because share plugin seems just able to use a start() and cancel() method from plugin lib or anything that can be done via JS/QML.21:02
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VenemoAlphaX2: this is not the channel for sailfish. for that please try #sailfishos or the mailing list21:55
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AlphaX2Venemo: Thanks for the hint.22:03
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